Episode 4

full
Published on:

10th Nov 2025

Hope, Policy, and Mental Health (with Dr. Crystal Hernandez)

The Ellens* visit with Dr. Crystal Hernandez, a seasoned forensic psychologist and mental health administrator. They tackle the sensitive topic of suicide, exploring hope, policy changes, and actionable solutions to improve mental health services in Oklahoma and beyond. Dr. Hernandez shares her expertise on access to mental health care, early intervention, the importance of community support, and innovative policy proposals like psychological autopsies and comprehensive youth care evaluations. Tune in for a candid and hopeful conversation aimed at making meaningful changes in mental health systems.

Transcript
Speaker:

Hi between two Ellens.

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We are excited about today's show.

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It is a little heavy.

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Um, we talk about suicide and, and

there's hope, and I think that's

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something that we talk about is that hope.

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We talk about some policies towards the

end, about things that Oklahoma can do.

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We talk about what other states

are doing a little bit as well.

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Um, we, I get to tell a

little bit of my story.

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We kind of talk about the things

that have changed in those nine

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years and what things have helped.

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Uh, 988,, suicide prevention.

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What else did we talk about?

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We just, we talked a lot about kind of

the root causes and that we're gonna

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try to address those things early.

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We're big believers in early intervention

and wraparound services, and we talked

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about being a parent during hard times.

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And so really grateful for

this conversation and, um.

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I enjoy.

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Yes.

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Uh, stay tuned.

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Um, here we go.

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Welcome to between two Ellens.

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I am Ellen Pommel.

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I'm Ellen Hefner.

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And we are joined and we're here today.

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Um, it's a heavy topic today, and so, uh.

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Um, you know, the minute I woke up,

I, I started remembering things that

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we'll be talking about, but I am so.

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Happy that, um, you're here.

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I call you Crystal, but this is Dr.

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Hernandez.

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We are, um, friends.

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I've known you for as long as you've

been in Oklahoma, and I'm so happy

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you're here with us to ex tell

us a little bit about yourself.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Um, so you can call me Crystal.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I am a psychologist,

forensic psychologist by trade.

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And training.

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Um, however, I've been operating as

a mental health administrator and an

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expert in not only mental health, but

uh, justice impacted mental health

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and disabilities for probably about

15 years, if not longer at this point.

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So I went back, got an MBA,

and I do a lot of consulting.

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I work with a number of individuals,

um, you know, for work, and then

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I also help a lot of individuals

because that's the right thing to do.

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Well, thank you so much

for being here today.

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Absolutely.

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Um, to talk about suicide between two

Ellens, I have so many, uh, things

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to, to ask, but first, um, I'd, I'd

like to talk a little bit about,

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as legislators, we do a budget.

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Right.

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And we put a certain amount of money, um,

that goes into other department of mental

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health and substance abuse services.

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And I think a lot of people

don't understand that.

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You know, we have no

guard rails on that money.

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We put it in the agency.

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And so some people I've heard that

call me or I know personally that

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says I, I'm not getting any help.

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So I go in a door, whatever

county that's in, if I go to get

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help, I know there's 9, 8, 8.

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Um, but.

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Where, where should I go?

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How should I start?

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So I think this is a conversation

not only locally, but nationally.

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This conversation continues

to happen about access.

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How can I access services, number

one if I don't know that they exist?

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Two, if they're too hard to reach, or

three, if there's too many barriers,

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um, in accessing those, um, services.

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And so I think the key thing that

we, we think about all the time

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is there's not enough funding.

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There's not enough funding.

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That is true.

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There's never enough funding.

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However, we have a finite number

of resources and we need to manage

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those resources of effectively.

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As best as we can, given the gravity

of what we have responsibilities for.

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And so I use this analogy all the time

when I talk about access to services.

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And so think about this tall building

and on top of this building, there's

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a utopia of services and supports

that lead to a quality long life.

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So housing security, healthcare, mental

health services, education, vocation,

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employment safety, all the things that you

need to be well, and to have a, a thriving

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life, and on top of that building.

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So think about that really tall building.

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Mm-hmm.

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All this stuff up there.

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And then down the side of it, there's

vines and protrusions, and then there's a

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special little elevator and it has a key.

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And it's only for key holders.

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And so you see this heavily resourced

man walking in with a, you know, shiny

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suit on with this key swinging it.

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He has that access to those

immediate resources and he has a

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much easier path getting to them

than down at the ground level.

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You have all of these individuals, elderly

individuals of color, um, individuals with

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various disabilities all over the place.

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Looking up at this utopia of

all the things that society

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or somebody tells me I need.

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How must I get there?

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Right?

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And so on the side of that graphic,

it says Difficult to reach population

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or difficult to reach services.

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Level the building, which means bring

the services down to where the people

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who need them actually can reach them.

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Mm-hmm.

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I love that level, the building.

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Me too.

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One floor, one door,

maybe not even a door.

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Yeah.

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Um, I, and I love how

you explained access.

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'cause we hear that a lot and I say, and

I didn't have to with you define it, but

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defining it in a little bit deeper would,

it could be transportation too, right?

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So we have to remember all those doors.

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And the access that gets there,

application, transportation

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and all those things.

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But mostly when you get in that door, you

still can't get the help that you need.

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Right?

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Right.

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And so that leads to the next step

of how to navigate in a system.

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And a lot of times, you know,

we have great systems and we

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have some not so great systems.

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Right?

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That's true.

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With anything and everything.

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And so you have to say, how can

we build systems that have some

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semblance of user friendliness?

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Meaning that the individual and

their care support system families,

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whatever that looks like, actually

feel comfortable there, feel welcome

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there, understand how to use it.

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We get bogged down a lot of times

in all the legal layers, all the

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jargon, all of these mandates

that are put upon the system.

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And then we forget the individuals.

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Um, so I'll just use a crisis example.

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Good.

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Again, I'm a visual person.

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Good.

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So I always go back to visuals

and explaining those to people.

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So there's a red crisis admission

form, and so it's like basic forms

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once you go into an emergency crisis.

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Um, you know, some places

use 'em, some don't.

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But it's an older image and it's a red,

you know, that bleed through kind of red

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that we used when we were in elementary

school and it's a crisis intake.

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And on the back someone flipped it over.

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They said, why should I have to get to

this level before you see me and hear me?

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Wow.

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And so that graphic speaks volumes

because we build systems that react

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to the situation rather than look

at the critical layers that led to

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the situation in the first place.

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And that's everything from access to

how the system and the agencies function

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to be able to be used appropriately.

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We like to say it's

always a funding thing.

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It is somewhat of a funding thing, but

it's also how you use those resources

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effectively and appropriately.

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We should be looking at how we can

build systems that are accessible but

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that are user-friendly and that have

meaning instead of constantly doing

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the same thing and then going, why

are we not getting a different result?

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Do you can, just to follow up on that

question, do you have like an example

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of a place that does do that well?

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I think there's quite a few places

that have done some great things.

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Mm-hmm.

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I think every place you'll, no matter

who it is, you ask, they'll say,

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oh, well we could do this better.

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We could do that better.

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Mm-hmm.

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I think some of the, the community

providers do a great job.

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Um, no matter if that's substance

use treatment or if that's mental

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health, a lot of them do great work.

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Whether that's crisis response,

whether that is outpatient services

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or advocacy, you have a lot of pockets

of great people doing great things.

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Um, the problem is, is

that we have a disconnect.

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We have a disconnect between layers and

we have a disconnect between locations

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and we have a disconnect in availability.

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So if you, let's say for example,

you're a child and you are in crisis,

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and let's say you also have a dual

diagnosis of autism, for example,

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that door to get in is incredibly

hard to find, and so in disabilities.

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Uh, we often refer to that as the

golden door because it always moves and

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you have to know someone to find it.

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That's the thing, and that's wrong.

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That's the thing about the disability

world or it's things like that,

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is that you have to know someone.

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And even being in, you know, uh,

family centered care is what.

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You know, as having a child with a

disability, family-centered care is, you

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are excellent at your job, but you're

gonna need me because I know everything

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about the kid that you're gonna talk to.

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Correct.

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So family-centered care

is that leaning in.

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So going into where, where our family

went, I was always expecting that

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mental health was gonna be like that.

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Like if my husband broke his arm,

that they would let me in the room.

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And it doesn't work that way.

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And so there's this hard

door, I feel still there.

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Mm-hmm.

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So this hard door where if I let,

if I know family centered care.

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You're not letting me help

you do the best for him.

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And so I, can you maybe talk

a little bit about that?

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You know, maybe not that that is

the ultimate or whatever, but do

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you think that we need more of that?

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I think that we need to

be a little less rigid.

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And so I was talking to somebody

today about this very topic of,

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let's say HIPAA for example, or

CFR 42 part two or whatever it is.

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There's these layers of legal protection

for individuals going into services.

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Whether mental health or substance

use or both, there were intended

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to protect the person, not

prevent the coordination of care.

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There you go.

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And so we have to really think

critically about the rigidity that

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we're applying to it out of maybe fear,

out of not knowing or out of policy

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or something that's been pushed down

to the people delivering the services.

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And so we have to really

think about how can we.

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Still protect the person's

rights, but also really focus on

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the best interest of the person.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so, uh, you know, when I, I've run

a number of, of facilities, inpatient,

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outpatient, and all the above.

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And so a lot of times I'll

tell staff that similar thing.

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It's not always, we hide behind this,

this thing to try to prevent and try

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to prevent without understanding why.

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And so if somebody has a support system.

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They're gonna go back to that

support system or that support system

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might need some support themselves.

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And what a beautiful thing when you

can serve the entire system rather

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than just one part of the system.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then expect it to change.

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It's not appropriate.

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Yes.

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So we do wanna talk about suicide.

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Mm-hmm.

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Last month was suicide prevention month.

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Correct.

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Um, give us a little understanding about,

um, Oklahoma and not comparing to other

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states, but I just wanna know where we

are, especially with, um, ages and, um,

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the, I don't think people know which

groups are really affected by this.

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So I will tell you, healthy Minds just

did a report back in May of this year and

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it really looked at a lot of that data

about ages and, and patterns and trends.

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And so we know overwhelmingly, again,

no matter what data you look at, 'cause

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every data set is slightly different,

we know that there is a high rate

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of suicide here in Oklahoma compared

nationally and to uh, many other states.

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We also know that we're seeing a lot

of youth that are engaging in self inre

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behaviors and contemplation and attempt.

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We know that we're seeing up

some of pockets of people.

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For example, native Americans.

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We're seeing black males.

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We're seeing all of these

pockets of, of individuals.

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But I will tell you, just like I say

this, no matter where I talk, it's only

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what is captured, not what is not known.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so how many times is someone's

death ruled something completely

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different, or someone's attempt

ruled something completely different?

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For example, overdose.

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You know, accidental or

intentional or, or this or that.

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We lose sight a lot of times of true data

because of those reasons of how someone's

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clicking it into a system, how someone's

writing it down on a piece of paper.

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So we need to just be

mindful of that as well.

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But overwhelmingly, we know

that we have to address suicide.

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You did mention suicide prevention

month last month, and I will tell

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you just like with anything else,

anything else conversation we had,

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I said, I'm glad we're talking about

it in October because guess what?

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It should continue beyond just the month.

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It's every day, everything.

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We all have a a role to

play in suicide prevention.

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This month is anti-bullying

and bullying prevention month.

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What do we know about youth?

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Youth that experience bullying

have higher rates of suicide.

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People with autism have

higher rates of suicide.

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There are so many pockets of people

that have kind of fallen away either

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by force or design, um, away from

pockets of community or families

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and, and trauma exposure and lots

of things that are going on and.

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Unfortunately we don't invest.

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Like we're not a system like I

just said earlier, like we react.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so think about it as, as the

person drowning, and I'm sure you

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guys have heard this, we throw

the life lifeboat in, right?

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Oh, someone's in the water struggling,

let's throw the lifeboat in.

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But a lot of people, and a lot of

systems don't do the critical work to

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walk up to the top and say, why do they

keep either falling in or diving in?

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And so we have to be

vulnerable as systems.

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We need to say, you know what,

something still is AIS here.

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We might have some glimmers of, of

hope and some glimmers of greatness,

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but we have a lot of work to do.

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And why can't we say, you know what we've

been doing X, Y, and Z, and it's just

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not producing the outcomes that we need.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, or we're doing all this, we're

throwing all these resources,

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but no one's measuring it.

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If we would take, and I think this with

all the policies that we do, and when we

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write policy or when we spend money or.

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Give money to agencies.

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If we are not looking at the program to

serve the most disenfranchised mm-hmm.

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We are missing so many.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because the most disen disenfranchised

may not have how they want you to

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fill out an application on a phone.

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And so those kind of

things, so where do I go?

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And so I, I, I think that, um,

suicide prevention for me is.

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I, I feel very guilty about suicide

prevention and I called because that's

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what we're offering our students, correct?

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Um, we have these two, uh, suicide

prevention programs and I called, um.

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I asked, I called my son Harry.

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He said I could tell his story

about it, but I told him, I go, why?

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Why do I Harry, why do I feel so

guilty about suicide prevention?

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You knew what all the

work that we were doing.

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I understood how to get access because

I had a child with a disability,

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so I knew all the loopholes to get,

I was just not getting anything

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back, and I feel so guilty.

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And he said, mom, that day that,

um, dad, uh, completed a suicide.

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We had suicide prevention at school.

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Mm-hmm.

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And what he told me was, um, he said

that that was nine years ago on that

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day, and he said that he never thought

as he was listening to it, with

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everything that was going on in his

home, um, that he never thought that

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someone close to him could do that.

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Mm-hmm.

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So whatever we're not saying, it's

almost still how we still think.

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Oh, my, my father's not gonna do that.

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My mom, my, my child's

gonna get through it.

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Right.

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Where are we missing that piece so

that, not that Harry, and who knows

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if I would've listened at that time?

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'cause I was struggling to even

get a phone call when he went to

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the, the hospital, uh, a call back.

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What, what, what do you think?

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What do you get from that

quote that my son gave me?

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I feel like it's still that belief that.

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Things are so disconnected where

this thing happens over here, but

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that can't possibly happen in my

life or to me or to my loved ones.

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And I think we carry that, not just with

this, but with lots of things in life.

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And I think the disconnect, you know, for

me and, and it's, I talk to my kids about

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these types, types of things as well.

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We have a lot of suicide

prevention efforts and, and

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thank goodness we do however.

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There's still multiple layers of

things that are missing because

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they're not making 'em real.

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Mm-hmm.

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They're not tying them directly

to realities, and I think that's

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where we're missing an opportunity.

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There's a lot of stickers and bumper

stickers and marketing and a lot of

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dollars that go into that, which it,

you know, I get that it has to happen.

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But we're not connecting

services to those activities.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so that's where we're

having that huge disconnect.

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We're having all this activity to

say, we're out here, come talk to us.

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We wanna help this.

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Look at the signs, look at all this stuff.

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But good luck getting that appointment.

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Mm-hmm.

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Good luck once you're in that appointment.

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Mm-hmm.

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Getting actual services.

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Good luck with not

getting kicked out soon.

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Good luck.

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You know, trying to deal with being

excluded from the care that was delivered

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and then try to welcome the person back

and not knowing how to handle that.

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And so you have to think about

all of that as a system, how

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we're not tying it all together.

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And so, you know, when I was running

a psych hospital, that was one of the

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things, when somebody comes in for

whatever reason, they're coming in.

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How are we preparing that

family to receive them back?

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And so are we.

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You know, maybe the person doesn't

want the, the family involved in their

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care and that's definitely their right.

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But if they do, you include them.

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And if they don't, you still give

them resources because there's still

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going to be that environment of care

for that person once they leave.

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And so think about simple

things like creating a brochure.

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That kind of explains this is

what to expect, this is how to

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navigate it once they come home.

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These are things to look out for.

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These are ways that we can get

you your supports and services.

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We don't do a great job at that.

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Mm-hmm.

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We don't talk about, you know, when you

have a parent who's going through these

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things, how it impacts the children.

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We don't talk about that.

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We just say, oh well

we offer them therapy.

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Well, therapy and traditional therapies

don't always work for everyone.

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We have to be, again, vulnerable and say.

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Where are some great opportunities for

us to expand our services to do better?

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And it's not about expanding

for, for control and monetary

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and you know, all of that.

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It's about expanding in the areas that can

actually change someone's life and change

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that family and change that community.

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And I think that's where we're

continually missing the opport.

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I agree.

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Yeah, we, last year there was

an interim study on bullying.

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Um, and it was partly because, um,

a high school student had completed

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suicide and his parents were trying

to work towards, you know, some

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better policy around bullying.

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Um, as a mom of like teenager

boys right now, like what are the

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types of conversations you have

with kids about bullying and.

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You know how we talk to kids about it.

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I will tell you, I cannot even fathom

living like they're living now in

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terms of access to social media, access

to being constantly photographed,

393

:

recorded all, I mean, tiktoks, all the

things that are coming at AI generated

394

:

things that are leading to bullying.

395

:

I can't even fathom living like that.

396

:

But when I talk to my kids,

it's about trying to understand

397

:

alternative perspectives.

398

:

And if you see somebody who goes quiet.

399

:

Figure out why.

400

:

If you see someone's

behavior change, ask why.

401

:

Be okay with that uncomfortable silence.

402

:

Sit with them anyways.

403

:

Um, and so those are the kinds of

conversations I talk about with my

404

:

kids is when you are around, people

pick up on their cues because a

405

:

lot of the cues are not verbal.

406

:

A lot of the cues are the way that they're

dressing their hygiene, the way that they

407

:

engage or don't engage their posture.

408

:

A lot of those things that we

take for granted to just ignore.

409

:

And so that's one of

the things I talk about.

410

:

The other thing is being able to

say something when something is

411

:

going on, either with themselves,

with their friends, with somebody

412

:

in their class or, or whatever.

413

:

Being okay to say something because

that's, I mean, when we study,

414

:

like bystander effect, right?

415

:

Mm-hmm.

416

:

Like we're always afraid to

be the one to say something.

417

:

'cause we might be

embarrassed if we're wrong.

418

:

And so you have to be O okay with

being uncomfortable because you can

419

:

save someone's life, you can change

someone's life, you can do something.

420

:

I know it's just too heavy though

sometimes to, I was just thinking,

421

:

you know, being uncomfortable

as opposed to devastation and

422

:

pain after your friend is gone.

423

:

Like, I think too, like you were saying

about, you know, we don't, with the

424

:

family and the receiving end of it, so

have you put that out because I sometimes

425

:

think, you know, parents, when their

kids are going through stuff, they.

426

:

Don't know how to respond to that.

427

:

Mm-hmm.

428

:

With the, you know, you may see

something, but you're also the mom.

429

:

Mm-hmm.

430

:

And that conversation may

be a little difficult.

431

:

It can be, it can be very

difficult for a lot of reasons.

432

:

One, it's that discomfort.

433

:

Right.

434

:

But two is the fear.

435

:

Mm-hmm.

436

:

Of what if they say yes, what if they say

something that I don't know how to handle?

437

:

And so as, as parents, it's, you

don't have to have all the answers.

438

:

So I think that's the thing to know, is

that you don't have to know everything.

439

:

You don't have to know immediately

how you would handle a situation.

440

:

It's okay to fall apart too, as parents.

441

:

Mm-hmm.

442

:

But that's where we

have to build networks.

443

:

That's where we have to build those things

into schools, into our churches, into

444

:

our community centers, into our friend

groups, is that it's okay to lean on

445

:

one another and say, I don't know this,

this thing that's going on with my kid

446

:

or my kid's best friend or whatever.

447

:

We have to be okay to say.

448

:

Let's network, let's figure this out.

449

:

Just like we network for recipes and just

like we network for, you know, clothing, a

450

:

best place to get shoes, we should be able

to network that same way for resources

451

:

that are going to change or save lives.

452

:

Would 9 8 8 be a number

anybody could call, you know,

453

:

for those types of questions?

454

:

Yes.

455

:

So 9, 8, 8 is, is obviously NA

nationally launched and, and

456

:

here within Oklahoma as well.

457

:

And so you can chat, you can

text and um, you can call.

458

:

There's also other

lines that you can call.

459

:

Mm-hmm.

460

:

Um, for different nuanced, uh, things

like if veterans first responders, um,

461

:

they have, they have lifelines as well.

462

:

And we also have copes in, in

Tulsa and we have, uh, heart

463

:

length or heartline that was here.

464

:

Mm-hmm.

465

:

Um, and so, and then there's a lot

of urgent recovery centers that

466

:

we have blanket across the state.

467

:

We also have a lot of CCBHCs, we have

a lot of substance use providers.

468

:

We have a lot of private,

uh, providers as well.

469

:

And so there's a number of places.

470

:

Where people can go and access services.

471

:

Um, you know, cryos has their own

line as well, so there's so many

472

:

opportunities for people to reach out.

473

:

And I think the goal here though is

how do we make number one those things

474

:

accessible and everyday place kind of

thing, where it's not like, oh, let

475

:

me get, let me Google that, or what

it needs to be more talked about.

476

:

Mm-hmm.

477

:

Like, Hey guys, just like if you have

your arm hurts or your leg hurts.

478

:

You have no problem going, I think I need

to go to the doctor today, or I think

479

:

I should, I should probably get online

and, you know, figure out where I can go.

480

:

And I think we need to be more

comfortable with that, you know?

481

:

And so the other thing I think, you

know, talking about the immediacy

482

:

of release and all these things that

happened, you know, one of the things

483

:

I, I told my staff when we're kind of

talking about release, because you hear

484

:

this all the time, we've gotta get them

to the least restrictive environment.

485

:

We've gotta get them to the

least restrictive environment.

486

:

Yes, that's true.

487

:

That should always be the goal.

488

:

But it shouldn't be the goal

at the expense of rushing.

489

:

And so you have to think

through all of those things.

490

:

And so I would say, okay, again,

we don't wanna be the system

491

:

where I come in with a cut.

492

:

You gimme a bandaid, you send me

on my way, I come back, I have two

493

:

cuts, and I gimme two bandaids and

it goes on until my arm's missing.

494

:

Instead, I want you to

say, why are you bleeding?

495

:

Let me figure out the source of that

injury so that I can prevent more injury.

496

:

Instead of, let me give you this until

I see you again, because you might not

497

:

see them again, or when you see them

again, every time it's going to be worse.

498

:

There's gonna be more to unravel.

499

:

There's gonna be more trauma exposure,

there's going to be more disruption in

500

:

their life, and we wanna prevent that.

501

:

We want to connect them with

things that are meaningful.

502

:

We wanna replace things that are harmful.

503

:

We wanna make sure that the people

around them feel supported and

504

:

comfortable and part of the equation.

505

:

If they have that.

506

:

And if they don't have that.

507

:

We need to find them surrogates because

people who are connected do well.

508

:

That's right.

509

:

And they have purpose.

510

:

And they have hope.

511

:

That's right.

512

:

And we knew that too, back in, you

know, having a parent that's gone

513

:

through something a little bit, you

know, ahead of where you're going.

514

:

Now we, we would connect parents like

that, you know, and a diagnosis or you

515

:

know, sometimes the diagnosis is over.

516

:

It's what you have to deal with

afterwards, which I think would be good.

517

:

That's why I'm really

supportive of those groups.

518

:

You know, that are supportive of families.

519

:

Mm-hmm.

520

:

Because even if things have changed

in that person's life, if they've

521

:

gone away for a little bit mm-hmm.

522

:

Really what's changed in the home

that they don't know, that could help.

523

:

So, tell us about a little bit more.

524

:

You brought up Copes.

525

:

Mm-hmm.

526

:

But isn't, is that like a, a

program like that that helped?

527

:

More of that sort of

after you get treatment.

528

:

So a number of those community providers,

for example, so there's the front

529

:

end and there's the back end, right?

530

:

So you want the people operating at the

front end to prevent people from having

531

:

to go through the system if possible.

532

:

Mm-hmm.

533

:

And if they do go through the system

first treatment of various types, you

534

:

need to make sure you're not just saying,

see you later at the door, because

535

:

that's not how transition should work.

536

:

Hmm.

537

:

It should never work that way.

538

:

It should always be a

step in with a wraparound.

539

:

And so you do have a number of

programs that have community-based

540

:

wraparound aftercare programs.

541

:

We need more of that.

542

:

We also need more a OT, uh, programs.

543

:

What's a O ot?

544

:

Uh, so basically think about it like this

is you're going out and instead of seeing

545

:

the therapist once in a while, you're

gonna get wrapped all the way around.

546

:

And so it's all the things that

you could possibly need at an

547

:

intensity that you need it.

548

:

We need more of that.

549

:

We need more of the, uh, PACT teams.

550

:

Again, similar concept.

551

:

Mm-hmm.

552

:

We need fact teams,

which are forensic based.

553

:

'cause we have a number of individuals who

end up in justice kind of, uh, situations.

554

:

And so we have to figure out how do we

get people from institutions, whether

555

:

that's incarceration or treatment, how do

we reenter them so we're not just doing

556

:

a turnstile over and over and over of

cycling them through the various things.

557

:

You know, we spend a tremendous amount

of money as a society on emergency and,

558

:

and there are emergencies, but if we took

some of that and invested it at the front

559

:

end, we wouldn't have so many emergencies.

560

:

Agreed.

561

:

Agreed.

562

:

Yeah.

563

:

Thank you for sharing that.

564

:

Um, just you, you brought up

the things that I, that I,

565

:

like, I wrote down, I was just.

566

:

You know, kind of frantic

thinking about things that should

567

:

change and you brought one up.

568

:

Um, getting, um, the intake on

when you go into a hospital is

569

:

long and detailed and it has to

do with how you're gonna pay too.

570

:

Mm-hmm.

571

:

And, um, but the discharge was so lacking.

572

:

Yeah.

573

:

Um, I was told that if, and I know they

still do this at places, but I was told

574

:

that if they, if I didn't pick up my

husband, that they were just gonna leave

575

:

him and he was gonna take a bus home.

576

:

Uh, which doesn't seem like care.

577

:

And then when I asked and tried

to communicate with doctors,

578

:

I would not get a call back.

579

:

Um, but also that his discharge papers

I found at the bottom of a paper

580

:

bag with his dirty clothes, uh, two

weeks after he had killed himself.

581

:

So like all those things that I remember

asking her, do I not get a discharge?

582

:

And she said, good luck.

583

:

And even all of that, you know,

I'm, I'm not a Google parent.

584

:

Um, I talked to the doctor, I wanna get

what theirs, because, you know mm-hmm.

585

:

People online are probably having the

worst day ever and not celebrating

586

:

some of the stuff that they should

be living through their diagnosis.

587

:

But, um, but I wish I would've known

that that first 24 hours was crucial.

588

:

And so that's where, you know, we, we

do some un like the, the pain after,

589

:

and now it's not just one person.

590

:

It's affected for people.

591

:

And so continuing up at that,

you know, how do we support

592

:

those caregivers of that?

593

:

It's uh, it's pretty weighty, you know?

594

:

And I will tell you is, I mean, I

couldn't, I, I put on my still letters.

595

:

The next day, you know, you,

I still had to keep going.

596

:

I don't know why, but, um, maybe it

was the kids looking at me, maybe

597

:

it was their needs or whatever,

but tell me how do we support?

598

:

And I already had community

in the support system.

599

:

Yeah.

600

:

I think it's community.

601

:

Mm-hmm.

602

:

You'll hear me say that many

times community is the best.

603

:

I knew who I could call, but

what about those other people

604

:

that don't have community?

605

:

Those who may not have been in

their home for a long time, or,

606

:

you know, been in their same town.

607

:

What, what do we have for them?

608

:

So there are a lot of, uh,

survivors groups mm-hmm.

609

:

That have different ways that

they reach out and wrap around.

610

:

Um, where I was before, I will tell

you there was a survivors of suicide

611

:

loss group that was incredible.

612

:

And what they did is they work hand in

hand with several community, um, uh,

613

:

coroner's offices and law enforcement.

614

:

And so they would get notified and they

would immediately wrap around that family.

615

:

And it wasn't just,

Hey, how are you doing?

616

:

We're here to help.

617

:

It was that, but it, it was even,

let's just sit in silence, whatever

618

:

it was that made that person or

that family feel comfortable.

619

:

But it was also all of the gaps and

all of the resources that the family

620

:

yet doesn't know that they need yet.

621

:

Mm-hmm.

622

:

You know?

623

:

And so I think we need more of that.

624

:

We need to incentivize better discharges.

625

:

Um, we need to mandate better

discharges, unfortunately, I hate that

626

:

word, but we have to do it sometimes.

627

:

We have to also look at how

we're training our professionals.

628

:

Yeah.

629

:

You know, I go back to walking in a

couple different places where some

630

:

of the things that were going on,

I'm like, this stops today because

631

:

that's not how we care for people.

632

:

One of the things, you know, whether it's

whatever service it is, if they're coming

633

:

in for service, let's say you're getting

a call in, a walk in is somebody being

634

:

brought in, whatever odds are, that's

one of the worst days of their life.

635

:

Mm-hmm.

636

:

And they're scared and they are confused

and, and there's a lot going on.

637

:

And they're, they're trying their

best to give you information.

638

:

You're trying to abstract, you know,

whatever you can from all of that.

639

:

And let's say that they don't

meet your little criteria.

640

:

Well, guess what?

641

:

You shouldn't just say you

don't meet our criteria.

642

:

Here's your, you know, notice of

action or whatever on your way.

643

:

You go, they walk through your

door, which was one of the bravest

644

:

things they could have done.

645

:

Oh yeah.

646

:

You better figure out how to

help them instead of just saying,

647

:

that's not what we do here.

648

:

I'm so sorry.

649

:

You know, and here's

your, here's your thing.

650

:

You don't meet our criteria because

that's not good business number one.

651

:

And that certainly isn't good practice.

652

:

Goodness.

653

:

Wow.

654

:

Um, so do, was there anything else

you had wanted us to talk about

655

:

when you came onto the podcast?

656

:

I would say, you know what, what I hope

is that people that are listening, whether

657

:

you are somebody who is going through this

personally, um, a family going through

658

:

this personally, or whether you are in

a position of power to make decisions

659

:

that can truly impact a system and people

think about what you're doing, think about

660

:

how you're saying what you're saying.

661

:

And it's okay to say, you know what?

662

:

I was doing it wrong all along.

663

:

Let me change.

664

:

Love that.

665

:

That's perfectly okay.

666

:

Gosh, I'm, I mean, and I'm

as I would've loved that.

667

:

Yeah.

668

:

Like, I don't care that you, that

you, you know anyone who says, okay,

669

:

now we're doing, oh my goodness.

670

:

Um, 'cause it's so helpful.

671

:

The pain that that came

afterwards was even worse than.

672

:

You know, trying to figure

out what, how to help them.

673

:

You know, I think that we, of

course we could always do better.

674

:

I can do better.

675

:

We all can do better.

676

:

Right.

677

:

But I really think that what you said

several things, access, disconnect.

678

:

Um, my son saying I didn't know, you

know, even my husband's friend say,

679

:

I never thought Jimmy would do that.

680

:

Right.

681

:

And it's almost like not this disbelief

that we didn't know that it could happen.

682

:

Right.

683

:

But it was maybe that true

belief that we thought that.

684

:

They would understand that

we were here for them.

685

:

Mm-hmm.

686

:

And, um, and I, I just thank

you so much for being here.

687

:

Um, we'll put all of those, like,

uh, details, all the information,

688

:

but I do wanna say that that's.

689

:

Gosh, there's so much help out there

that if we can figure out some of

690

:

these tiny barriers, I think that we

really could help more Oklahomans.

691

:

Um, I think that we're in denial that we,

we don't have a, a severe problem about,

692

:

um, about how we take care of healthy,

mentally healthy Oklahomans, and I know

693

:

there's a lot of people doing it, right.

694

:

We just have to cover Oklahoma

because I think we're, we definitely

695

:

know that we're missing places.

696

:

We need the door to be easy to get to.

697

:

Yeah, easy to get to.

698

:

I would say, you know, just

kind of reiterating everything.

699

:

There are resources out there,

some are doing incredible work.

700

:

Um, some could do better.

701

:

Mm-hmm.

702

:

I think that we need to look at how

we are investing in our structures

703

:

and our systems and our, and our

providers, and we to look at where

704

:

the opportunities are to do things

differently, better, or if something's

705

:

great, keep doing it and do more of that.

706

:

Yeah.

707

:

Well, crystal, I am systems change,

so let's roll up our sleeves.

708

:

Yeah.

709

:

You go in that door.

710

:

And try to figure out every piece

that maybe we can figure it out.

711

:

I know it takes time, but

I know that we can do it.

712

:

Mm-hmm.

713

:

And, um, of course I'm always

grateful for all your knowledge.

714

:

You're so good.

715

:

Anything else that you

wanna say before we leave?

716

:

No, I, I do I have a question for you.

717

:

Oh, that's right.

718

:

You know exactly.

719

:

I can't wait.

720

:

So this is sort of part of the end that we

like to have our guests ask us a question

721

:

and hopefully maybe we'll have some people

give us questions coming on as well, but.

722

:

What question do you

have for the two Ellens?

723

:

Well, hopefully you guys are

fresh up on the pop culture stuff.

724

:

Uh, so the question is, uh oh.

725

:

Was the dress really gold and white?

726

:

Or was it blue and black?

727

:

Ooh, ooh.

728

:

Um, I'm gonna say gold and white.

729

:

I don't, I don't know the reference y'all.

730

:

I thought it was gonna

be Taylor Swift at first.

731

:

There's a picture.

732

:

Okay.

733

:

And so when you look at it, some pe

there was a whole internet debate.

734

:

Okay.

735

:

Whether the dress was golden white.

736

:

Oh my goodness.

737

:

And whether it was blue and black.

738

:

Oh my gosh.

739

:

And was it a lighting thing?

740

:

Oh, I don't know.

741

:

I did listen to the new Taylor Swift album

three times and I'm very excited about it.

742

:

I listened to it as well this morning.

743

:

I listen to one song this morning.

744

:

Oh my gosh.

745

:

I'm obsessed.

746

:

So, but I don't know the color,

but, but tell us what you think.

747

:

Yeah.

748

:

What do you think?

749

:

Well, it depends.

750

:

Okay.

751

:

It's your perspective, right?

752

:

Mm-hmm.

753

:

So that's the way I would say it.

754

:

Just like anything else we

do, it's about perspective.

755

:

If you can't see their perspective.

756

:

Take a different approach

and maybe you will.

757

:

I love that.

758

:

I was just gonna say, I want it to be

golden white, but now that you just

759

:

said that, it's, uh, interesting.

760

:

Let's turn that or let,

let's figure it out.

761

:

Yeah.

762

:

And I think we can, I think we can.

763

:

Um, I think that I'm too hopeful

sometimes, but I know that if

764

:

you are needing help or you or

your child you think is don't.

765

:

Even if you think they'll be mad at you

either way, you know, that's the smallest

766

:

thing that you'll have to deal with.

767

:

You love them.

768

:

Mm-hmm.

769

:

They'll always love you and

they'll be grateful for you to ask.

770

:

Um, uh, for, for, for you asking them.

771

:

I used to ask my kids and now

we just sort of go, I'm okay.

772

:

Mm-hmm.

773

:

And it's something that

we didn't have before.

774

:

And gosh, too bad that we had to have

something really tragic happen before we

775

:

got to that place that we asked about.

776

:

Are you okay?

777

:

So I hope that all, all of you guys out

there, Oklahoma and beyond, that we, um,

778

:

we pay attention to those signals, right?

779

:

And embarrassment is the

least of what you feel.

780

:

Absolutely.

781

:

Um, if, uh, if you are really trying to

help and save a life, which you will.

782

:

You will if you do.

783

:

Thank you.

784

:

You'll so much of you here, crystal.

785

:

So appreciative of you, Dr.

786

:

Hernandez.

787

:

And again Ellen, thank you

so much for a great podcast.

788

:

Yes, thank you for your bravery, Ellen.

789

:

Thank you.

790

:

Thank you.

791

:

Afterwards, we had some

really good conversation that.

792

:

Um, I think we were just

a little bit relaxed.

793

:

I was a little tense I think.

794

:

Mm-hmm.

795

:

Um, and so you guys missed a lot

of things that we talked about.

796

:

You got me crying especially,

but, um, we started talking about

797

:

policy, which is what between two

Ellens really wants to talk about.

798

:

Mm-hmm.

799

:

Is policy.

800

:

And I apologize if I stopped short

of all this good stuff that you

801

:

wanted to talk about, but please,

we talked about two things that you

802

:

brought up, two things recently.

803

:

Can you.

804

:

Help the Ellens understand what these are

and um, maybe how it could help Oklahoma.

805

:

So, suicide being what

it is here in Oklahoma.

806

:

We talked about that

early on in the episode.

807

:

We need more policy and or activity

around psychological autopsy and making

808

:

sure that we're getting the right people

trained and through the room and forming

809

:

these committees so that we can really

delve into all of the things that are

810

:

going on related to mysterious deaths.

811

:

That could be suicide related,

suicide deaths, all of the things.

812

:

And it's, yes, it's about those

lives, but it's more so about

813

:

setting policy and policy that's

actually going to be applicable

814

:

because you're looking at true cases.

815

:

Mm-hmm.

816

:

You're not looking at theory.

817

:

You're not looking at

textbooks and presentations.

818

:

You're looking at real human lives

that have either succumbed to

819

:

suicide or that are questionable.

820

:

And it helps you figure out where, let's

trace that and trail that backwards.

821

:

Let's figure out how,

what that path was like.

822

:

Mm-hmm.

823

:

How they got there.

824

:

Would that be at the county level

or how does that, so some places do

825

:

it at the county level, some do it

regionally, some do it at the state level.

826

:

And so I think really looking

at where can we start it?

827

:

And this is the thing I always

hear when we talk about policy.

828

:

Oh gosh, that's a big lift.

829

:

Or Oh my goodness, where do we start?

830

:

The whole point is just start,

because if it start somewhere, yes.

831

:

Just start myself, it will grow.

832

:

Yeah.

833

:

Let's just start.

834

:

Um, I'm sure that a lot of people would

want to, I mean, as painful as it is,

835

:

try to see, especially now, things have

changed so much in the nine years mm-hmm.

836

:

For me.

837

:

But even when we were kids or like you

were talking about earlier, so this

838

:

would help what's going on right now.

839

:

Correct.

840

:

It helps you go and look at how

all of these paths and stories,

841

:

where are they intersect.

842

:

Mm-hmm.

843

:

Where they differ.

844

:

And all of those things will better

inform people to make those policy

845

:

decisions because let's say we pull a

hundred people down and we sit in that

846

:

room and we've all had this training.

847

:

We're we're, we're really looking

at these stories and we discover

848

:

something we didn't realize, and then

we discover a gap in services that we

849

:

never really paid much attention to.

850

:

Or maybe it's something we already knew

and it just confirms that, so then we can

851

:

funnel resources there and be a targeted

approach rather than a splatter approach.

852

:

Nice.

853

:

Not just thinking what would happen.

854

:

I know we have a lot of ideas in

the house and in the Senate, so

855

:

this is something that's actual

data, which we all can learn from.

856

:

The other thing that we were just

talking about, my favorite program

857

:

sooner start and sooner start is a,

is one, um, case, one person, my young

858

:

son, but he would get, there'd be a

table around him, say, how's he doing?

859

:

Or What does he need?

860

:

What are needs are?

861

:

What do we need to add?

862

:

What do we take away?

863

:

Is there another program or

policy that you were ta we

864

:

were just talking about this.

865

:

Yeah, so I was talking about,

uh, youth in particular.

866

:

We're talking about detained youth and,

and folks that are in the CHI child

867

:

welfare system and in other states they

do something that's basically looks at

868

:

getting a multidisciplinary team around.

869

:

And it's looking specifically at

diagnosis, it's looking specifically

870

:

at medications and treatment and

how that individual is actually

871

:

functioning with what's given.

872

:

And not just trailing that same

script over placements without

873

:

taking a critical look and saying,

did we get it right the first time?

874

:

Is it affecting them?

875

:

How is puberty affecting them?

876

:

How is this new thing affecting them?

877

:

And so it's, it's basically looking at

how can you appoint these individuals.

878

:

And so typically the composition of

that committee is led by a psychiatrist,

879

:

has other psychiatrists on there, and

it has psychologists, lcs, WS, nurses,

880

:

and they're looking specifically.

881

:

And so they all sign, you know, paperwork

so that everything is protected.

882

:

And that's what they do is

they sit in there and they

883

:

critically look at these cases.

884

:

And so.

885

:

What we have oftentimes is kids that

end up in systems that get shuffled.

886

:

Mm-hmm.

887

:

And when they get shuffled, sometimes

they're forgotten and sometimes

888

:

they're, they're just continued.

889

:

And so when we do either one of those

things, it's a disservice because we're

890

:

not looking at what their true needs

are that could help them have a better

891

:

outcome, have a better placement, have

better life, or we're continuing something

892

:

that really is not helping them at all.

893

:

Oh gosh, the pre, pre, even if the, the

child seems to be okay, you know, as well

894

:

as I do that sometimes shock is there.

895

:

Yeah.

896

:

And so, um, to have that in place just

in case or to check up on it, I always

897

:

like to say until we don't need it,

gosh, I wish I had a, a team around

898

:

me a little bit, you know, to, to help

me know where those things are going.

899

:

Thank you so much for explaining that

it was, I think that we have to run the

900

:

a little bit longer afterwards 'cause

we both get a little too comfortable

901

:

and, and I do appreciate um, you taking

some extra time to talk us Absolutely.

902

:

With us about that.

903

:

Anything else we should know policy wise?

904

:

Ellen, do you have any other questions?

905

:

No, I think that was.

906

:

Well, I love the fact that we came back

a few, you know, minutes later because

907

:

their conversation was so important.

908

:

I think these are topics that we can

go all different directions because

909

:

they're so heavy, number one, but

because they actually mean so much

910

:

to families and individuals mm-hmm.

911

:

And our communities, and I think that we

just need to have everyone pay attention.

912

:

Look around you, open

your eyes, open your ears.

913

:

Some things might be scary, some

things might be heartbreaking, but some

914

:

things might be a fantastic mm-hmm.

915

:

If you just.

916

:

Wake up.

917

:

Thank you so much.

918

:

Thank you.

919

:

We talk about strengthening

families and I think something like

920

:

that would really help families.

921

:

Thank you.

922

:

Thank you.

923

:

Thanks guys.

924

:

Thank.

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About the Podcast

Between Two Ellens*
Between Two Ellens* is a podcast hosted by Oklahoma state representatives Ellyn Hefner and Ellen Pogemiller. Together, they dive into pressing state issues through both a legislative and community lens. Each episode features conversations with experts, advocates, and Oklahoma legislators to highlight diverse perspectives and practical solutions shaping Oklahoma’s future.