Labor omni vincit (with Forrest Bennett)

The Ellens* sit down with Representative Forrest Bennett from District 92 for an insightful discussion on the topic of 'Right to Work' legislation and its impact on unions and labor in Oklahoma. Forest Bennett, a seasoned state representative, shares his views on the historical and current landscape of unionization, the challenges faced by workers, and the importance of collective action. The conversation also dives into the personal experiences and family histories of union involvement, highlighting the critical role unions play in ensuring fair wages and working conditions. The episode wraps up with a fun and engaging discussion on spooky season traditions and movies. Join us for an informative and spirited discussion that sheds light on the crucial issues facing workers today.

Transcript

Ellen Pogemiller: 00:00:09

Welcome to Between two Ellens.

: 00:00:11

I am Representative Ellen Pogemiller.

: 00:00:15

Ellyn Hefner: I am Ellyn Hefner,

representative from House district 87.

: 00:00:20

Forrest Bennett: That's why it's called

: 00:00:20

Between Two Ellens.

: 00:00:22

Ellyn Hefner: That's why Wait.

: 00:00:23

So time out.

: 00:00:24

I think, didn't you just start Right,

but the, that was the natural for him.

: 00:00:29

You wanna do it again?

: 00:00:30

Ellen Pogemiller: No, we

can, I mean, we can give

: 00:00:32

Ellyn Hefner: it, I think

this is good content.

: 00:00:33

Okay.

: 00:00:35

Forrest Bennett: This is what people want.

: 00:00:36

Ellyn Hefner: Well, we're

so happy that you're here.

: 00:00:38

Uh, forest, uh, Bennett, uh, the

representative from district.

: 00:00:43

Forrest Bennett: You got it.

: 00:00:45

Ellen Pogemiller: 92.

: 00:00:45

92, I had to look.

: 00:00:48

Ellyn Hefner: I'm happy that you're here.

: 00:00:49

You're not only a great friend,

um, but you're also, uh, a great

: 00:00:52

representative and I'm very happy for your

mentorship since I'm new in the house.

: 00:00:57

And I'm happy that you agreed to come

and, uh, talk with the, the Ellens, uh,

: 00:01:01

about a, a topic that I don't think a lot

of people know about or, um, something

: 00:01:07

that was passed and, uh, changed.

: 00:01:09

Quite a bit how the, um, a way

of life for people in the, in

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Oklahoma workers especially.

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Um, so, uh, please introduce

yourself and give us a little,

: 00:01:19

a little description from you.

: 00:01:22

Forrest Bennett: Okay.

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Fors Bennett?

: 00:01:23

Yes.

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You covered that.

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District 92.

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She covered that.

: 00:01:26

Uh, and I've been, uh, the

state representative for the

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fight in 92nd, since 2016.

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Uh, the district covers, um, midtown.

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Downtown, a part of the South Side

Valley Brook and, uh, the fairgrounds

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and, uh, a few neighborhoods

scattered around that general area.

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And I have, uh, it's been the

honor of a lifetime to do that job.

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And, uh, I have just

completed my ninth year.

: 00:01:52

Mm-hmm.

: 00:01:53

Ellyn Hefner: Wow.

: 00:01:54

Well, thank you again.

: 00:01:55

Thank you for being here.

: 00:01:56

Hey, you're welcome.

: 00:01:57

So today we'd love for you to

talk about Right to Work Okay.

: 00:02:01

Between two Ellens.

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Forrest Bennett: Sure.

: 00:02:03

For Ellen and for Ellen.

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I'll talk about it.

: 00:02:06

Uh, it is, um, it is the law

of the land in Oklahoma and

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many other states right now.

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Right to work is, uh, legislation

that swept the country,

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uh, in the early thousands.

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In fact, Oklahoma tried, uh, to pass

right to work in: 1964

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Wow.

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Uh, and then they, they tried

again in, uh,: 2001

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It was a part of a national

trend, uh, that in my.

: 00:02:33

Opinion, and I am a

politician, so I've got those.

: 00:02:36

Um, was was designed to weaken unions and

I think that plenty of people who are, uh,

: 00:02:43

pro right to work would acknowledge that.

: 00:02:46

Um, though I think that history will

not look fondly upon those folks,

: 00:02:50

I think in the long run, especially

because as we were talking before,

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um, before this started recording, uh.

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Uh, union membership is

on the rise nationally.

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Unions are polling very

well, uh, nationally.

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I would like to see some numbers, um,

about how, how they're looked upon

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in Oklahoma, and I hope to do that

in, in the next, uh, couple years.

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Uh, but in my view.

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So let's just establish that I'm gonna

just, I'm gonna opine quite a bit.

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There's some facts and then there's

a lot of opinions that I have.

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It's been bad.

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Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

: 00:03:25

Forrest Bennett: Uh, it's been

bad for workers, it's been bad for

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working families, and therefore it's

been bad for the state of Oklahoma.

: 00:03:30

Do you have any follow ups?

: 00:03:32

Ellyn Hefner: I do.

: 00:03:33

Well, I'm just a, a little bit more

about, uh, so thank you for explaining

: 00:03:37

about Right to Work, um, before Right

to Work and then like after you, the

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unions have gone down, but what else

is the change that has happened?

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Not just people not signing up for

unions, but can you see something

: 00:03:50

else that has changed because of

Right to Work and, and how we look

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at those who have trade jobs and.

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Forrest Bennett: Sure.

: 00:03:56

And it's not just trade jobs.

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Um, the, the effect of, of right to

work, which I should explain, uh, what,

: 00:04:02

what the, what the mechanics of it are.

: 00:04:04

Yeah.

: 00:04:04

But the effects predominantly, uh, hit

public service employees and women,

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um, because women generally, um, sort

of populate those, those jobs, um, at

: 00:04:16

a greater percentage, right, to work.

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Um.

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Said that no longer could, could

employment be, uh, contingent

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upon joining a union, uh, in, in

unionized shops and office places.

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Uh, so there was a time when, when

teachers, when they, uh, were hired,

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were automatically a member of the

union that represented their district.

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Um, there were construction operations

that, that you were immediately union.

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Um.

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Federal jobs, I mean, across the board.

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And I think that especially in places

like Oklahoma, where people think

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of union workers as construction

workers, uh, plumbers and pipe

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fitters and, and electricians and

welders, um, which is certainly true.

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Uh.

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Unions represent folks in every industry.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, from the deli counter at Homeland

to, uh, the teacher's assistant at your

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favorite school, um, to fast food workers

in many cases, there is a, there is

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an effort now to unionize gig workers.

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And one thing that's been interesting, um.

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Is that in the states where, where

unions have remained strong, they've

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tried to innovate and, and learn how

to organize as, as the economy, uh,

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shifts and, and grows and changes.

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Um, and in places like Oklahoma,

I think that we've fallen behind.

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Uh, we have I think the second lowest

union density in the United States.

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And the reason.

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That I think this is really ironic

in places like Oklahoma is that,

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um, so many of our colleagues

talk about the dignity of work.

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Speaker 4: Mm.

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Forrest Bennett: Um, especially when

they're trying to force it on people

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in order for them to access, uh,

benefits that I think the three of

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us, um, believe are just human rights.

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But, um,

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but, but Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep.

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Rambling unless you g guide me.

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Ellen Pogemiller: Well, one of the things

I would just like weigh in on a little

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bit as someone, you are a union member.

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I am, as was I before I, um, came on.

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And one of the key differences

I think, um, I had worked in

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non-union jobs before that.

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And when I came to work at a union job

within those first months, they were

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like, well, we're gonna send a staff

member to a board mem board meeting.

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And I was like, oh, we get to attend

board meetings to hear what happens.

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And that was.

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Mind blowing to me.

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And then, you know, people kind of talk

negatively sometimes about bargaining,

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but I think when you understand that

bargaining is a compromise, and also it's

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a compromise with union members trying

to negotiate what they think is the most

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beneficial to their members at large.

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And so a lot of what we talk about is

unions is this erosion of benefits.

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That other states are getting because

their union ship is stronger Yeah.

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Than

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Forrest Bennett: we are.

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You know, and I, maybe

we should, uh, roll back.

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I don't, I think we have

approximately four hours to affect.

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So, so for you

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Ellyn Hefner: only as,

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Forrest Bennett: as, as the US grew just

rolling way, way back to, to, to history.

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Um.

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Unions were popularized

by immigrant workers.

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Mm-hmm.

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The Irish, the Italians, um, the

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Ellyn Hefner: Polish, the Czech.

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Forrest Bennett: Sure, sure.

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You know, push your polish on whatever.

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Um.

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No, but, but it's true because, uh, they

built this country and, um, and, and

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they saw the need to, um, to organize so

that they could take collective action,

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um, to, to access the things that they

and their families and the communities

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around them felt they deserved.

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Because the reality is for time

immemorial, the people who hold the power

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and the money have never voluntarily.

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Given it away.

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Mm-hmm.

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They have never voluntarily provided,

not through their, their benevolence,

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uh, do people have good pensions

and an eight hour work week.

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And, um, and I mean, Oklahoma,

interestingly enough is this place

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that, um, included in its constitution,

which was at the time, um, in: 1907

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the longest constitution of any

state in the, in the country included

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specific provisions that came from

what were called the Shawnee demands,

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um, which were vestiges of the 1905.

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Uh, proposed constitution for the state

of Sequoia, which had been, um, which,

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which had been dreamed up by the five

tribes and by tenant farmers and, um,

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formerly enslaved, uh, black families

who were still, you know, under the

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thumb, um, and, and remained to So today.

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Uh, and one of those provisions

was eight hour work weeks and,

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and, uh, a ban on child labor.

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These, these were, um,

fundamental tenets of.

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Of the unions and, um, you know, we had

United Farm workers that was a big union

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in the early, uh, uh, 19 hundreds here in

the, in, in the, in the state of Oklahoma.

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Um, and labor, generally speaking,

prior to the National Labor

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Relations Act operated outside of it.

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It was not operating with

the permission of government.

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And one thing that some sort of labor

scholars, uh, are lament is that that.

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That we ever kind of got into bed

with the government, so to speak.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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That when the National Labor Relations

Board was established, it sort of took

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some of the autonomy away from unions.

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But the reality is unions will

always exist, whether or not that is

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with the permission of government.

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Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

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Forrest Bennett: And in fact, at a

certain point, they should exist in

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spite of what the government wants.

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Ellyn Hefner: So I, I always love to

talk about, you know, we talk about

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the high level part of all, you know,

people running it and how things are.

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Kind of managed up top.

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But I can tell you from coming from

a union family, my grandpa, who

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was a tool and die, uh, draftsman,

he worked for cco, uh, in Chicago.

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He retired at 60.

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He had a pension and I got to

really enjoy him as being a grandpa.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Ellyn Hefner: And so I think that those

are the things and lived, you know,

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uh, and his, his wife, she didn't,

my grandma didn't have to work very

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much, you know, supported him and

supported the grandkids and her kids.

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You know, it was, it was that

family sort of, and then of my dad

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was in the UAW, uh, and so that.

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Having all of this sort of experience

about how family was so important and

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how we provided and supported family.

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I felt that,

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Forrest Bennett: yeah.

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I think you hit the nail on the head.

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You know, people who wear, I, I made

this debate on the house floor last

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year or earlier this year, but you

know, those, the folks who talk about

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making America great again mm-hmm.

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Which is not, um, not my politics, but

a lot of them, regardless of whether

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they're conscious of this or not, are

thinking back to a time when one job.

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Could sustain a household and that that

golden age of American workers existed in

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large part due to the support of unions.

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Unions are to be clear to

anyone listening, whatever

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the worker wants them to be.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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If, if this rumor to unionize

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Speaker 5: mm-hmm.

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Forrest Bennett: You know, the,

the issue could be we do not like

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that Andy is wearing a, a shirt

that has colors that could be.

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Construed as being Pro

University of Texas.

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We don't want that.

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Um.

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And that could be the, the, the basis.

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But, you know, if, if you're work, there's

always sort of a, you know, a unifying

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issue around which people unionize.

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Whether that's, you know, folks at

a, at a grocery store whose, whose

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shifts are getting screwed up, or

teachers who are not getting paid

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well enough, or people whose, whose

pensions are being threatened.

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I was the first, uh, class

of legislators to, to have a

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401k instead of a, a pension.

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Mm.

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Had a long conversation with Randy

McDaniel, the, the legislator who had

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gone on a crusade against pensions.

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Mm-hmm.

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During his time.

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And he was spending 20 minutes

trying to explain to me why I

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was way better off with that.

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And I stopped him and asked him,

well, did you take the pension option

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or did you take the 401k option?

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Mm-hmm.

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Randy's what?

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The pension?

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That's it.

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Boom.

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Ellyn Hefner: But see,

but, and then of course.

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You know that, that, that too,

that those protections, and it's

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the protections that I like.

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Of course, you know, I'm gonna

bring up, the topic I talk about

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all the time is disability.

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And I think right there you talk

about homelands and the people that

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work there, they're included in a

membership, which means so much.

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When you have to continually

always fight and say, I am still

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here and I wanna be involved.

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The unions, because you're part of it,

you're a member and they'll protect you.

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Absolutely.

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And fight for you.

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They'll keep your wage, they'll

hopefully get you a, a wage that

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will be higher to get a raise.

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I mean, there, there are all those

great things about, um, employees that

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we support being part of that union.

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Tell me, um, tell us something else about

the, uh, maybe the futures or something

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that you see that could be changing

and, um, what we could do to help.

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Forrest Bennett: Yeah.

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You know, I think that the, um.

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I think that the And what, yeah.

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What, what, what is our time constraint?

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Ellyn Hefner: We're we're,

we're got so much time.

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She was just looking at the time.

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Forrest Bennett: Well, I just, I have a

tendency of tendency to be long-winded.

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Um, I mean, I think the future,

my, my hope is that history, you

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know, repeats itself in positive

ways as well as negative ways.

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Um, 'cause we're seeing it repeat

itself in negative ways, in my opinion,

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which again, I was told I could

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Speaker 4: mm-hmm.

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Forrest Bennett: Share.

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Here.

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Um, but, you know, I think that as,

as the owner class, sort of, as the,

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the corporate hoarders of wealth

class make their intentions less

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veiled, um, they're being so much more

straightforward about their desire to

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hoard as much wealth as possible at the

expense of the people that are making

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their, their machines work for them and

pumping that money into their coffers.

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Um.

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Workers are getting pissed.

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Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

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Forrest Bennett: And it's

regardless of politics.

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I mean, you know, I, Bernie Sanders

was in West Virginia, you know,

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burning the barn down because

he was talking about an economic

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system that isn't working for folks.

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Um, and, and Donald, uh, to his

Reddit, I guess, tapped into that.

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Mm-hmm.

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All the while.

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Having every intention of, of, of

making sure that the, the sort of the

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corporate mega lords that supported

him would, would get support as well.

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But he tapped into that for

folks, that populist idea, um,

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you know, and I, and, and so.

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That coupled with the fact that no

time in history has any successful

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major social movement succeeded

without the help of the labor movement.

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I think we're going to see a

resurgence of that, and in fact,

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we are seeing resurgence of that.

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The idea, um, that we can make that.

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More prevalent in Oklahoma gives me a

lot of hope, and I think that we can,

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I have spent, uh, the last year, um,

visiting with, with union locals across

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the state of Oklahoma, and, um, it's

been eye-opening to me both to hear what

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their concerns are and the things that

they'd like to see done, but also to

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meet sort of the broad spectrum of people

and backgrounds that they come from.

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Um.

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I am a member of the Communication

Workers of America, 60 86.

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It's the Oklahoma State Workers Union.

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Um, you are an OEA member.

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Mm-hmm.

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OA, yeah.

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And, and, you know, got

OEA and a FT for teachers.

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Um, and those folks have always been, um,

I mean, folks who are multi-generational

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union folks have always understood it.

323

: 00:15:43

On the other hand, multi-generational

union folks and people who come into.

324

: 00:15:49

Coming to unionized shops and, and

office places may not be aware that it

325

: 00:15:54

was their forebearers, that that fought

for those, for those pensions and those

326

: 00:15:58

good wages and that good contract.

327

: 00:16:00

And, um, so we have an education to do

and to the, to the degree that Right

328

: 00:16:05

to work has, has forced unions to.

329

: 00:16:11

Find a way to sell themselves to people.

330

: 00:16:13

Mm-hmm.

331

: 00:16:14

As opposed to just kind of

resting on their laurels.

332

: 00:16:16

I mean, if, if I'm gonna be critical

of, of the union movement, it was that

333

: 00:16:19

they, they did once they, you know, be

before ride to work swept the nation.

334

: 00:16:23

That was, um.

335

: 00:16:25

That was an issue.

336

: 00:16:26

It's sim similar to the, to,

to the way Democrats just

337

: 00:16:29

kind of got caught flatfooted.

338

: 00:16:30

When, um, when, when the red wave, so

to speak, came through Oklahoma and, and

339

: 00:16:35

Republicans won up and down the ballot,

Democrats were technically still in

340

: 00:16:39

control when right to work happened, but

they sort of saw the writing on the wall.

341

: 00:16:42

And I think this is an important

lesson for aspiring politicians.

342

: 00:16:45

Uh.

343

: 00:16:45

Democrats thought that maybe they

could stave off that change by

344

: 00:16:49

supporting something that many of

them knew was not right for workers.

345

: 00:16:53

But they, they sort of, um,

acquiesced to this, to this, um.

346

: 00:17:00

Swelling, you know, tension there.

347

: 00:17:02

And, um, and it was, I mean, David

Boron and I think Governor Nye

348

: 00:17:07

endorsed, uh, right to work in

: 2001

349

: 00:17:12

So it was a bipartisan, and

they love to talk about that.

350

: 00:17:13

We talk about this at the Capitol

now, you know, if they get one or

351

: 00:17:16

two Democrats, they love to say it

was bipartisan, you know, but that,

352

: 00:17:19

but, but history will remember that

it was a bipartisan effort mm-hmm.

353

: 00:17:22

To, to, um, kind of clamp down on unions.

354

: 00:17:24

What's interesting now,

especially because we.

355

: 00:17:27

You know, those of us who get to know our

Republican colleagues know that this does,

356

: 00:17:31

shouldn't sit well with them, but so many

people in workplaces where they could

357

: 00:17:36

unionize, I'll use Homeland as an example.

358

: 00:17:38

Um, or CWA or Ash Me.

359

: 00:17:42

I was up talking to the Tulsa, uh,

Ash me folks earlier this week.

360

: 00:17:47

There are folks who work in

those places who choose not to

361

: 00:17:52

unionize because they know that.

362

: 00:17:55

The people who are paying their union dues

are going to negotiate on their behalf

363

: 00:18:00

and they're gonna get the benefit of that.

364

: 00:18:02

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

365

: 00:18:02

Forrest Bennett: The problem

is, and I was talking to Ash,

366

: 00:18:04

Oklahoma City about this mm-hmm.

367

: 00:18:05

Their president, uh, Bruce Davis says, you

know, we've got, we, we have the capacity

368

: 00:18:09

to have 1300 members, we have 500 members.

369

: 00:18:11

Mm-hmm.

370

: 00:18:11

And the city knows exactly how

many members we have and the.

371

: 00:18:18

The strength they perceive from

the, the union during negotiations

372

: 00:18:23

re reflects what that number is.

373

: 00:18:24

Mm-hmm.

374

: 00:18:25

And right now, any, you know, manager,

owner class can look at a weak union

375

: 00:18:34

and know, going into that negotiation,

I, I don't have to sacrifice much.

376

: 00:18:38

Mm-hmm.

377

: 00:18:39

They're not coming to me

from a position of strength.

378

: 00:18:42

And it is this vicious cycle

because the people who aren't union.

379

: 00:18:46

Look at the contract that's

negotiated and say, man, see,

380

: 00:18:49

this is why I'm not in the union.

381

: 00:18:51

You guys didn't do a great

job negotiating for me.

382

: 00:18:53

And the response from them should be,

yeah, because we don't have the numbers.

383

: 00:18:57

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

384

: 00:18:58

Forrest Bennett: I mean, right now, paying

your union news, paying my union dues

385

: 00:19:01

is a commitment to collective action.

386

: 00:19:03

Mm-hmm.

387

: 00:19:03

And direct action.

388

: 00:19:05

I am, I'll be honest with you.

389

: 00:19:06

Um.

390

: 00:19:07

The CWA, the Oklahoma State Workers

Union is, uh, kind of in rebuilding mode.

391

: 00:19:11

We're in a rebuilding year.

392

: 00:19:12

Mm-hmm.

393

: 00:19:13

Uh, right now happens.

394

: 00:19:14

It does, uh, like the, like the

lead said Democrats, it happens

395

: 00:19:19

Ellyn Hefner: rebuilding,

396

: 00:19:20

Forrest Bennett: but like, just like

us, there is a lot of passion there.

397

: 00:19:24

Mm-hmm.

398

: 00:19:24

And, and, and it's about, it's

about crafting an argument that

399

: 00:19:30

works for folks and, you know,

one, one important, um, part of.

400

: 00:19:37

Of union organizing is agitating.

401

: 00:19:40

Yeah.

402

: 00:19:40

And uh, Ellen, you know, sitting

near me on the house floor,

403

: 00:19:44

agitating, uh, Ellen with a y for

those who are not watching, um, I'm

404

: 00:19:49

Ellen Pogemiller: in the backpack,

405

: 00:19:51

Forrest Bennett: but, uh.

406

: 00:19:52

And there's a fine line between agitating

and aggravating, and you don't want to

407

: 00:19:55

shame people to the degree that they're

so turned off by, by the labor movement.

408

: 00:19:59

But there is an argument to be made

that man, all these folks who talk

409

: 00:20:03

about individual responsibility and

you know, the, the fact that you know

410

: 00:20:08

a job is the best way to get ahead.

411

: 00:20:11

Those who, you know, think that

we shouldn't have a social safety

412

: 00:20:14

net, well, the alternative to a

social safety net is a good job

413

: 00:20:18

with good wages, reliable benefits.

414

: 00:20:21

And, and, and a pension or, or a good

savings mechanism and a way to safety.

415

: 00:20:26

Yeah.

416

: 00:20:26

Yeah.

417

: 00:20:27

A way to set yourself up

for success in the future.

418

: 00:20:30

So, you know, there are a variety of

avenues that we can use to sort of

419

: 00:20:35

start advocating for, for more folks

to join and to find places where, where

420

: 00:20:40

we're not organized and get organized.

421

: 00:20:43

Um.

422

: 00:20:44

There's obviously a lot of work to do,

but, but Oklahoma has presented us with

423

: 00:20:48

a plethora of examples to point to, to

say, this is why you need to unionize.

424

: 00:20:52

Because again, the rights

that workers have, have, are

425

: 00:20:56

never voluntarily given up.

426

: 00:20:58

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

427

: 00:20:58

Forrest Bennett: By, by the owners

of bus, of, of companies, by

428

: 00:21:01

the people who run government.

429

: 00:21:03

Um, and I think that people

are waking up to that reality.

430

: 00:21:07

Uh, and, and then, then also, uh, there's,

there's another sort of to, to change the.

431

: 00:21:14

Direction a little bit and, and

then I'll stop talking so you

432

: 00:21:16

guys can ask, you know, resear it.

433

: 00:21:18

But there's a democratic element and

that small de democratic element, um, to

434

: 00:21:25

unions that is very similar to our caucus.

435

: 00:21:29

Mm-hmm.

436

: 00:21:29

You know, we have a variety of people,

you know, left of center, but there's

437

: 00:21:33

some that are very conservative.

438

: 00:21:34

There are some that

are very, very liberal.

439

: 00:21:36

Many times we disagree mm-hmm.

440

: 00:21:38

On a lot of things.

441

: 00:21:39

And what we can get together

on are those sort of top line.

442

: 00:21:44

You know, agenda items that we want.

443

: 00:21:45

The same is true of unions.

444

: 00:21:46

You know, I've, I've met union leaders

who are good Democrats and 60% of

445

: 00:21:51

their membership is Republican.

446

: 00:21:53

They have differences, you know,

that, that are, that are strong and,

447

: 00:21:59

uh, difficult to navigate, and they

still find a way to get together and

448

: 00:22:02

find that, that common thread through

which they're all gonna work, that

449

: 00:22:07

that makes the union matter to them.

450

: 00:22:09

And.

451

: 00:22:12

And, and there's a

democratic process to that.

452

: 00:22:14

Mm-hmm.

453

: 00:22:14

You know, you show up to your union

meetings, you vote for your leadership.

454

: 00:22:19

And unlike, you know, American electoral

politics where you show up every two

455

: 00:22:25

years and you vote and then they, you

know, your elected representatives

456

: 00:22:28

do what they do, you unionize, and

then the next step is deciding.

457

: 00:22:33

What you're gonna demand in your

contract, what you're gonna demand

458

: 00:22:36

in, in negotiations, um, and what

kind of campaigns you want to take on,

459

: 00:22:40

like, like the minimum wage question

that we're gonna be talking about.

460

: 00:22:43

Um, it is the sort of one of the

last vestiges of true democracy

461

: 00:22:48

that I see in this country.

462

: 00:22:50

And, um, especially at a time

when I consider a lot of our sort

463

: 00:22:54

of, you know, core institutional

principles are, are under attack.

464

: 00:22:58

The idea of the union as a stop gap

against backsliding, away from, from

465

: 00:23:05

a democratic society is so important.

466

: 00:23:07

Mm-hmm.

467

: 00:23:08

And if, if, if it can be a vehicle

through which people can see that Yeah.

468

: 00:23:13

Direct action and participating in

showing up matters, um, then I think

469

: 00:23:17

we're all for the better for it.

470

: 00:23:18

And you know, the same people

that are union busting.

471

: 00:23:21

Are the billionaires that are

pumping millions of dollars

472

: 00:23:23

into elections every two years.

473

: 00:23:25

Mm-hmm.

474

: 00:23:25

So to anyone at the same time

as they try to promote this idea

475

: 00:23:29

that, you know, showing up for

elections doesn't really matter.

476

: 00:23:33

They're doing that.

477

: 00:23:34

It's all by design because they clearly

know the, the importance of, of investing

478

: 00:23:39

your time and resources in elections

because it has helped them keep the

479

: 00:23:42

status quo that they've enjoyed.

480

: 00:23:44

Mm-hmm.

481

: 00:23:44

Mm-hmm.

482

: 00:23:44

I'll stop.

483

: 00:23:45

Ellyn Hefner: Well, I just, uh, the,

you, you reminded me something that we

484

: 00:23:49

didn't really talk about, which is the,

a big community piece and, um, you know,

485

: 00:23:53

you show up two elections every two

years, you know, and you, you think that

486

: 00:23:57

that's the, the process, but you show up.

487

: 00:24:00

Those meetings and meeting and

having things together creates a

488

: 00:24:03

community that really develops, um,

us into, uh, being more supportive

489

: 00:24:08

of each other and trying to help.

490

: 00:24:10

And it gives us the best of us,

especially reminding me of when you

491

: 00:24:14

were talking about being young and CCO

doing a Christmas party every year,

492

: 00:24:18

and it wasn't just a party for adults.

493

: 00:24:20

They had it at Lincoln Park Zoo one

year, and it was in winter, so it

494

: 00:24:23

was cold, but they opened it up so

you could be around other people.

495

: 00:24:28

One year it was that old Chicago, which

was an indoor amusement park in Chicago.

496

: 00:24:32

So you could see, I could see other.

497

: 00:24:35

People that did, kids that didn't

go to school with me, but I

498

: 00:24:37

would see him every year and then

we got to be friends later on.

499

: 00:24:40

You know, it was, it, it, it, it made

those bonds tighter on working mm-hmm.

500

: 00:24:45

Together and, um, even

if I was a grandkid.

501

: 00:24:48

Speaker 5: Yeah.

502

: 00:24:48

Ellyn Hefner: Um, but I just growing

up and understanding that kind of piece

503

: 00:24:52

of a union as a kid is sort of my path.

504

: 00:24:56

In how I do things too, especially

with disability, the community that,

505

: 00:25:00

the seat at the table, that kind

of stuff to really get your voice.

506

: 00:25:03

So I appreciate that.

507

: 00:25:05

I mean, just talking about

it, get me all warm and fuzzy.

508

: 00:25:08

Ellen Pogemiller: The hardest, I think,

hurdle when you're talking to potential

509

: 00:25:12

members, as we call them, is that you will

have a conversation with them and you are

510

: 00:25:16

clearly aligned in the sense of the things

they want, the kind of hurdles that they

511

: 00:25:22

see, the way they wanna work together.

512

: 00:25:24

And, but for some reason,

union in their mind.

513

: 00:25:27

Is something that's off limits.

514

: 00:25:29

They would never do that.

515

: 00:25:30

And it's, I like struggled with that

all the time in those conversations.

516

: 00:25:34

'cause I'm like, you are with me.

517

: 00:25:36

Right?

518

: 00:25:36

The change you wanna see is with us.

519

: 00:25:39

Speaker 5: Right.

520

: 00:25:39

You

521

: 00:25:39

Ellen Pogemiller: know, and there

was, you know, you're talking

522

: 00:25:41

about a cup of coffee a week is

how much it costs to join a union.

523

: 00:25:44

Right.

524

: 00:25:44

People talk about, it's

like very expensive.

525

: 00:25:46

It's not.

526

: 00:25:47

But the power is in the number of people.

527

: 00:25:50

Yeah.

528

: 00:25:50

And if people won't take that leap to

get there, it does diminish our power.

529

: 00:25:55

It does, because numbers matter.

530

: 00:25:56

And

531

: 00:25:56

Forrest Bennett: it is a, it is a

self, um, fulfilling thing there

532

: 00:26:00

because when you have fewer numbers,

your outcomes aren't as good.

533

: 00:26:03

Speaker 5: Right.

534

: 00:26:03

Forrest Bennett: And, and then that gives.

535

: 00:26:06

Potential union members, fewer

reasons to join, but it is so

536

: 00:26:10

clear if you have five minutes with

somebody to explain that to them.

537

: 00:26:13

Yeah.

538

: 00:26:13

And then it's up to them to,

um, to figure out the rest.

539

: 00:26:16

It's the same as like, I remember those

videos of people being interviewed on

540

: 00:26:19

the street about Obamacare, and they

were asked about specific provisions

541

: 00:26:22

and protections that were provided

and that, and those people would

542

: 00:26:24

say, oh yeah, no, we need to do that.

543

: 00:26:26

Then the, the interviewer would say,

so how do you feel about Obamacare?

544

: 00:26:29

Oh, no,

545

: 00:26:30

Speaker 5: no.

546

: 00:26:30

Yeah.

547

: 00:26:31

Forrest Bennett: And, and, and I think

that's an important lesson because,

548

: 00:26:33

um, the folks that don't want us to

have access to these, these important,

549

: 00:26:37

um, protections and, uh, um, things

that you and I would, would consider

550

: 00:26:43

to be basic rights for workers,

um, they, they have, they've worked

551

: 00:26:49

very hard and very successfully

to muddy the waters in that way.

552

: 00:26:52

Yeah.

553

: 00:26:52

And it is a sad, sad reality.

554

: 00:26:55

Um.

555

: 00:26:56

And to, to,

556

: 00:26:59

to what we have to do.

557

: 00:27:00

It's, it's being be, it's being

more proactive in fighting that.

558

: 00:27:04

I think that, you know, in the nine

years I've been at the legislature,

559

: 00:27:07

I've worked well with, with the unions,

but it's largely been to play defense.

560

: 00:27:11

Ellen Pogemiller: Mm-hmm.

561

: 00:27:11

Forrest Bennett: And, uh, it's

time for us to get, to get a

562

: 00:27:14

little bit on the offensive side.

563

: 00:27:15

Ellen Pogemiller: So we, we did talk

with um, Andy Moore about state question

564

: 00:27:19

ballot initiatives and how those work.

565

: 00:27:21

But one of the big ones

coming up is minimum wage.

566

: 00:27:24

And I think what's cool is not maybe

all unions, but I know a lot of unions

567

: 00:27:29

that I've talked to are very supportive

of increasing the minimum wage 'cause

568

: 00:27:33

they get that we have to have a higher

standard of living for all Oklahomans,

569

: 00:27:37

whether you're in the union or not.

570

: 00:27:39

What are your feelings on how you

think this state question's gonna go?

571

: 00:27:43

Forrest Bennett: I think it's, um.

572

: 00:27:44

Uh, vitally important and I'm, I'm, I'm

looking forward to the conversation,

573

: 00:27:49

to the degree that I, I look forward

to being a part of educating the

574

: 00:27:52

public on, on the need for this.

575

: 00:27:55

Um.

576

: 00:27:57

You know, it pains me to know that a

lot of the companies that, that buy so

577

: 00:28:01

much social capital by donating what

amounts to pennies on the dollar for,

578

: 00:28:05

um, for their corporate coffers, buy a

lot of social capital, um, you know, by,

579

: 00:28:11

by supporting different nonprofits and

charities and donating here and there,

580

: 00:28:15

uh, and they're gonna then use the social

capital that they've built up over the

581

: 00:28:18

years to come out and say, Hey, come on.

582

: 00:28:21

We don't need this minimum wage.

583

: 00:28:22

Don't let the government tell us.

584

: 00:28:23

Well.

585

: 00:28:25

They're, they're gonna be successful

in that, in some corners of the state.

586

: 00:28:29

Um, because people haven't woken up

to the reality that, um, that what

587

: 00:28:35

they're doing, I think about, and, and

these, this is in my district and I'm

588

: 00:28:39

not trying to be too, um, I don't know.

589

: 00:28:44

Uh, I don't wanna lambast 'em too much

'cause they do provide good, good jobs.

590

: 00:28:49

But Devon Ice Rink, for example, I think

about that every Christmas they're.

591

: 00:28:54

Their logo's down there.

592

: 00:28:55

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

593

: 00:28:55

Forrest Bennett: You're seeing

their logo side by side with

594

: 00:28:58

families having a good time.

595

: 00:29:00

Well, that, and, and the average

person looks like, wow, they've

596

: 00:29:04

Between Two Ellens*

Episode 2

25th Oct 2025

Labor omni vincit (with Forrest Bennett)

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