Episode 1

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Published on:

25th Oct 2025

Let's fix this state (with Andy Moore)

Join state representatives Ellen Pogemiller and Ellyn Hefner for their inaugural podcast episode of 'Between Two Ellens.' This episode features Andy Moore from Let's Fix This, discussing the complexities of state questions, the initiative petition process, and the impact of recent legislative changes on Oklahoma politics. Learn about the intricacies of Medicaid expansion, the challenges of signature collection, and the push for open primaries. This engaging conversation aims to educate and involve the community in political processes that shape their everyday lives.

Transcript
Speaker:

We are excited to kick off our first

podcast for between two Ellens.

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I am Ellen Pommel, state

Rep for House District 88.

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Welcome.

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My name is Ellyn Hefner, a

state rep for House District 87.

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And, um, we've put together between

two Ellens with really the goal of

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trying to bring issues, um, topics that

we see at the capitol, people that we

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talk to throughout our own districts,

throughout the state to try to bring

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that, um, to the community at large.

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You always talk about Ellen,

that it's about policy too.

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It's about policy and the details, how

it affects, uh, at the street level, uh,

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sometimes getting up in that, that big

building, which is a beautiful building.

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But we talk about all the high level

and the effects on, um, Oklahomans is

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something that I like to talk about

and you, so especially with your past

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and uh, what you've done in the States.

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So I'm looking forward to our first guest.

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Yes, me too.

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Um, today we.

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Are joined by, um, Andy Moore

from Let's Fix This, and so

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first, Andy, if you wanna.

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Tell us just like a little bit about you.

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Sure.

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Thanks Alan.

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It's great to be here.

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Super honored to be your first guest.

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Uh, let's fix This was started in

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budget crisis, um, that we were facing.

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I have not, I was not in politics.

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I worked in public health.

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Um, in mental health.

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I'm a licensed counselor, and,

but saw a clear need, like it was

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starting to really impact people's.

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Everyday lives.

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Um, people who didn't pay

attention to politics.

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And uh, so I created it as a, as a,

I made a Facebook event to get people

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involved, um, really to take them to the

capitol and build relationships with our

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elected officials, which is something

we all know we probably should do.

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We should make phone calls and

write letters, and we never do.

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Uh, but it was right down the street.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, for those of us who

live in Oklahoma City.

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And, um, so try to do it as a

like, low barrier way of just like,

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just come, we'll do it as a group.

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Um, I had no idea it would take off.

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Um, it turns out Oklahomans

really do care about the state

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and they want to be involved.

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They want to have a voice that matters

and not everyone's sure where to start.

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So we try to create opportunities for

people to be more engaged with, um,

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politics, to build those relationships.

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And then we've learned there's a lot

of education that we need to do in our

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state around, um, how politics works,

how government works, how elections work.

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Uh, and so over the next few years,

started doing a kind of a deep dive into.

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How did we get here?

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What are the, what are the

decisions or the policies?

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I love a deep dive.

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Yeah.

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That led to like the

problems that we see, right?

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We, you know, governor Statt talks

about being a top 10 state and we know

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that we're bottom 10 in so many things.

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We're top 10 in bad things,

bottom 10 in good things.

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And when you drill down to

it, the system, the structure.

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By which people get elected, right close

primaries, gerrymandered districts,

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uh, huge influx of money in politics.

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We see these as like corruptive

influences on good government and so.

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Since then, we've kind of

been fighting to change that.

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Yeah, I love that.

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And so we are so glad that you are here.

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Um, talking about, um, really

state questions between two Ellens.

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And so we know that there are several

ways that, um, initiatives can get to

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the ballot and we really wanna focus on.

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How, um, individuals can have a ballot

initiative that is from the people and

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that moves from signatures to questions.

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Yeah.

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And so hoping you can kind of walk

us through that process and then

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changes that have kind of occurred.

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Yeah.

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Since last year.

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Yeah, for sure.

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I mean, the state question process, right?

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The initiative petition process.

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It is not unique to Oklahoma, but

we were the first state to include

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it in our state constitution.

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About half of the states, about

26 states have some form of an

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initiative petition process.

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Ours is arguably the most onerous, um,

as one might imagine for our state.

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And so, uh, in, in fact, uh, several

years ago,:

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opportunity to, to lead a state question

or a ballot initiative campaign.

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Um, to trying to end gerrymandering.

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Um, learned a lot more about the

process that I had read about, but

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experiencing was very different.

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And as you, as you said, Alan, there have

been some recent changes, um, that really

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make a negative impact on, on the process.

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So currently, I mean, not currently,

let's just step back, you know, if

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someone wants to get something on

the ballot, um, you know, what are,

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what's their initial process look like?

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Yeah.

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So there are.

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We, we talk about state questions,

there's like three types, right?

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There's, um, a constitutional amendment.

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There is a, a statutory amendment or

a, a regular law amendment, uh, or

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just a regular law, statutory change.

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And there's also like a, a veto

referendum, which is a way to,

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for the voters to like veto a

bill that the legislature passed.

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That's kind of a special case,

so I'm gonna set that aside.

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Mm-hmm.

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The other two are the main ones, right?

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So things, a state question

arrives on your ballot.

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Either because it was initiated

by voters, by citizens, or it was

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referred there by the legislature.

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So in the case of a constitutional

amendment, the legislature cannot amend

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the state constitution on your own.

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I'm gonna say yours

'cause your legislators.

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Mm-hmm.

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But you can't do it on your own.

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It has to go through a vote of

the people, which I think is good.

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Mm-hmm.

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Like there's a, there's a step there

of like, this is our constitution.

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We should have a say in it.

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Um, but citizens can also initiate that.

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And we can also initiate,

um, regular legislation.

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Um, and, um, you know, the process

starts with an idea, right?

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Of like, how, what is it you wanna change?

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Does that change?

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Like, could it be a statutory,

a regular law in many cases,

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especially for big things?

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Um, it's probably in

our state constitution.

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Mm-hmm.

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Oklahoma has a very long, um,

uh, detailed state constitution.

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There's a lot of stuff in there that

probably shouldn't be, but um, so

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that's why we have to amend it as we go.

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Um, in general, I'll, I'll kinda

just give you like the Yeah.

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Top line.

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Yeah.

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So in general, the steps are, you

know, write the policy, file the

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policy, survive legal challenges.

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Mm-hmm.

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Collect signatures, uh, and then, you

know, educate and persuade voters until

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you win, uh, or when it's on the ballot.

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So eventually we get to vote on it.

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That's the.

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That sounds like a really rosy overview.

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It is much more nuanced and

difficult as we go along.

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Well, you brought up legal challenges,

so there's something currently that

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maybe, um, we could talk about, but,

um, senate bill, uh, 10 27, but I'd

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like to go back and just talk about

something that was put on, um, a

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ballot that, um, that Oklahoman's

got a vote for and that we have now.

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So if you could describe one of

those, uh, those things that were.

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That worked.

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And then it also describes something

that the amount of maybe questions

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that do get on the bill, that get on

the ballot and then don't get passed.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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So I, I said earlier, it's

a really difficult process.

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Um, when it comes to

signature collection alone.

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Oklahoma has one of the highest

thresholds, like the highest number

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of signatures required of any

state, but the shortest timeframe.

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So we'll only have 90 days

to collect signatures.

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We need.

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In general terms, like you're gonna need

200 to 250,000 signatures at a minimum.

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Mm-hmm.

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When you break that down, like

the, I mean, think right now, the

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actual number is about 180,000 for

a constitutional change, well, that

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comes down to 2000 signatures a day,

every day of that 90 day period.

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And just the idea, like the logistics

of how do I get volunteers, um, or

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even how do I, you know, pay people

to go collect:

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Um, that, that's part of the reason

that like many campaigns don't

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ever make it to the ballot, right?

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Aside from the legal

hurdles and everything else.

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Um, it is a very high bar.

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It's overwhelming.

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It is.

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Most states allow at least six months.

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Some allow like a rolling

12 month period, 90.

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Uh, and so we have one of this, I

was on a call yesterday with some

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folks in Missouri, um, who are

collecting signatures to try to

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change their initiative process.

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And they're like, well,

we've got six months.

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And then they all kind of said, sorry,

Andy, Oklahoma is, uh, is a hard time.

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Good luck with that 90.

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That's right.

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Uh, we would love to see that changed.

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Um.

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The, so a good example of one that has

been successful in recent years, uh,

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was in 2020, uh, Medicaid expansion.

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Um, and this is a good

example for lots of reasons.

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First of all, it wasn't just a

hair-brained idea that a few, you

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know, voters had one day, it was a

long term, like a decade long effort.

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So the Affordable Care Act passed,

you know, about 10 years before, uh,

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back during the Obama administration.

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And then states were kind of slowly

expanding Medicaid one by one.

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There was a club at the beginning and

then it was kind of trickled in, which

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is how a lot of stuff happens nationally.

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Oklahoma's one of the last states

to expand Medicaid, but it was

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discussed in the legislature.

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Um, several times.

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There were proposals put out by agency

directors, by the governor, or not

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by the governor, but agency heads.

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And eventually the legislature passed

Medicaid expansion or a version of it.

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And the governor, ve

Governor Stid vetoed it.

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And it was only after that that, you

know, folks on the ground said, okay,

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it's clear that the legislature is uh,

or the governor, someone is unwilling

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to pass this, but the people demand it,

so we're gonna have to do it on our own.

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Uh, and so they filed a policy,

um, it's pretty straightforward.

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They, you know, survived

all the legal hurdles.

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There's always challenges of like

whether or not this is constitutional

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and whether or not the summary paragraph

is accurate, these little hurdles.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, they got through that and

then collected a record number of

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signatures over 300,000 signatures.

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Wow.

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From every county.

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Um, all, all 77.

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All 77 county.

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Right.

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They collected signatures from

Beaver and Cimarron County way

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on the panhandle, um, to the, you

know, major metros and all that.

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Um, and then, uh, it was on the

ballot in I believe, June of:

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which was a interesting election.

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'cause it was in the middle of,

it was, um, just before COVID.

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Mm-hmm.

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No, it was during COVID, no.

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Was during COVID.

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It was during COVID, during the

flatten the curve phase of COVID.

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Yeah.

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Um, so it was a unexpected

election, so lots of mail

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ballots, lots of challenges there.

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And, uh, and it won narrowly, but it won.

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And is, it is now part of our state

constitution is that Oklahoma's Medicaid

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laws were changed to ensure that folks

that, um, qualify based on income or

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other status, um, have access to, to

Medicaid and um, really a big win.

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Mm-hmm.

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I think for the people of Oklahoma.

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Absolutely.

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So over the last two years, we

have passed at the legislature, um,

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legislation that has made it even more

difficult than you were describing.

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So ensuring that there's longer challenge

periods and that the collection,

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um, period is while it's 90 days,

there's more requirements on where

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you can collect those signatures.

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So can you walk us through the impact

of Senate Bill 10 27, which is still in.

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Legal window.

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Yeah.

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But if it's approved, this

is what it would look like.

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Yeah.

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So you're exactly right.

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So, uh, last year, year before last,

there was a bill that passed that,

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um, changes the, the challenge period.

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So there's, in the, in the process there

are two windows where anybody opposition,

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like anybody could, could challenge.

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Some element of the initiative,

uh, that's underway.

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So typically it's at the beginning,

right after you file, there's like a,

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there was a 10 day challenge period.

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So in the next, the, the state

puts out notice and you had 10

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days to file a legal challenge.

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Folks felt like that

was a little too short.

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Um, and maybe I could agree, like mm-hmm.

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It didn't ever seem to be a problem.

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There were still challenges

filed every time.

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Um, but if you happen to not

know about it, you know, you

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might miss the, the announcement.

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And so rather than expand it to like

two weeks or even a month, uh, the

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legislature expanded it to 90 days.

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So three months of time, which

for the campaign means you're

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just kind of sitting around.

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Mm-hmm.

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Waiting to see if someone's gonna file a

challenge, knowing it's probably coming.

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And those always get filed

on the last day, so, yeah.

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Right.

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Uh, but it's really tough for a campaign

because you don't even know if you.

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You can start collecting signatures yet.

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Yeah.

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So you're really just gonna,

when do I get workforce?

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Yeah.

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When you Right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You can't hire anybody if you

don't know what the next thing is.

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Uh, and so they expanded not just that

challenge period, but there's one towards

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the end after signature collection,

they expanded that to 90 days as well.

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So together, that's 180 days of Yeah.

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Essentially waiting around

time for the campaign.

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Which is ironic 'cause the

campaign only has 90 days.

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Right.

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Like signatures and so, um, but

those three things together.

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Right.

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Well, that's.

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Uh, nine months worth of time just around

challenges and collecting signatures.

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So now it's taking more than a

year before a campaign can even

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qualify for the ballot, which

makes for a really long process.

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Mm-hmm.

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When other states, sometimes it's,

you know, they can file stuff in

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June of an election year and have

it on the ballot in November.

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Um, that is not the case in Oklahoma.

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We really have to plan and then fundraise,

you know, to, how do you hire staff?

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How do you hire organizers or

keep volunteers engaged mm-hmm.

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For, you know, more

than 12, 15, 18 months.

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That's a long time.

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And then a little bit about question.

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Oh, state question, sorry.

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Yes.

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Senate bill, uh, senate bill,

the, um, collection of Yeah.

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Um, people's.

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Signatures.

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Yeah.

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So this year in 2025, the

legislature passed senate bill in 27.

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Mm-hmm.

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That made a bunch of

changes to the process.

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Um, it changes, uh, limitations around who

can collect signatures that you have to

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wear name tags, and if you're paid, you

have to know who you're being paid by.

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Um, and like there's limitations

on who can fund state questions.

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It says no out of state entities can

fund state questions, uh, which I

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think invites opportunity for, um.

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You know, money to just be

routed through intermediaries.

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There's like ways of, you know,

there's loopholes to all that stuff.

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Um, the signature collection

process itself was, there was a

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change to the form a few years ago.

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Um, and there's only been one campaign

that's gone through it so far.

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Um, where the form is now

has to be scannable by a

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computer so they can read it.

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Um, and in the past, a campaign.

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When they were cleared for signature

collection, we just go out and

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collect signatures everywhere, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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You're doing a 2000 a day or more?

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Yeah.

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You're just out wherever you can

and you don't get to pick when that.

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Frame it.

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So like it might be in the middle of

winter when no one's out and about.

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So you're trying to go to parking

lots and go to churches and just

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the state fair would be a good one.

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Right now, the state fair would be huge.

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Mm-hmm.

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For several reasons.

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One, 'cause you get people

from all 77 counties mm-hmm.

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Who come to the fair.

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That's right.

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Uh, so this is, and that brings up

the really, I think, contentious

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and arguably unconstitutional

element of this bill is that.

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The bill puts a cap on the

number of signatures that can be

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collected from any one county.

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So it's ca it, um, the formula like varies

based on the population of the county.

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Um, but it comes out to like around 11

point a half percent of it's 11 point

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a half percent of the turnout in the

most recent gubernatorial election.

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So you need a degree in math to

start figure this out, right?

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Um, and you know, some data to go pull on.

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But that means that for less populated

counties like Cimarron County mm-hmm.

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Or Beaver, some of those ones like

out in western Oklahoma, um, several

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of those are capped that only 74 or

85 people from that county would be

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allowed to even sign the petition.

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Wow.

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Anything more than that

would ex would exceed Right.

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The cap and is unnecessary.

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And the same thing in the metros, uh,

Oklahoma City and Tulsa, you have a cap.

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It's obviously a higher number,

but the percentage is lower.

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Um, and so it, the goal by the authors

of the bill said, well, we want to

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force campaigns, require campaigns

to not just go to the metro areas.

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Well, that's never been the case.

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Mm-hmm.

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Any campaign worth itself is

going to go to as many counties.

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Mm-hmm.

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'cause you need votes from every county.

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That's right.

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These are not.

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Urban issues or rural issues.

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Um, also people may move

around or visit, right?

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Like I've been to a monster truck rally

at the fairgrounds here and sat next

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to some folks who drove in a couple

of hours from, um, from a rural area.

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And it's like people do

come to the cities often.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so you still have to like over

index on outreach in the metro areas,

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especially during football season, state

fair season, all that kind of stuff.

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Um.

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But the effect then is that it almost,

um, encourages campaigns to strategize

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around more populous counties or events.

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And it also just like limits who can sign.

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So previously, if, you know, if we

wanted to do a state question to say

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that chicken fried steak is the official,

I know it's part of the official

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meal, but you know what I'm saying,

um, that we wanna make something like

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that, that everyone's on board with.

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Right.

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If we want a resolution that Oklahoma's

better than Texas or whatever mm-hmm.

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We can do something.

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And if a million people wanted to sign

it, they could, uh, and now they can't.

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Mm-hmm.

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They can't.

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And so if you are, you know, voter

number 86 in that county that

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only allows 85, you're outta luck.

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Uh, and that I think really speaks to the

heart of like, uh, you know, canceling

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voters' opinions, which is not at all

what, that's not the representative

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democracy that I would like to live in.

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My, uh, we spoke, uh, about, uh, a friend

that, uh, you and I both have Nancy Ward,

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who is, uh, a disability self-advocate.

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She's, uh, she was great, helped

with a DA to include people

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with id, um, with, uh, IDD.

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Um, but she would always tell me

that any restrictions that we put on

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voting or signature collection or any

kind of rules that we have, or laws

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that are placed that are restrictive.

396

:

That, uh, they affect

people with disabilities.

397

:

So we've, because of, um, you know, not

having a bunch of services in our rural

398

:

areas for people with disabilities,

especially specialty doctors, they've

399

:

had to move towards more urban areas

to get the caregiving and help, and so.

400

:

Their vote, their signature, uh, would

be one of those that would be kicked,

401

:

that would be that 86th one or whatever.

402

:

Or they just wouldn't be able to

participate, especially at such a quick

403

:

time, you know, to uh, be able to, uh,

tra transportation, to get places to go

404

:

out and to be that 90, 90 day window.

405

:

So any restrictions, um.

406

:

So what, what are your thoughts on that?

407

:

And if that is something that

disenfranchises that community, I

408

:

mean, could that be another thing that,

uh, could go against that great law?

409

:

A DA?

410

:

Yeah, a hundred percent.

411

:

Love Nancy.

412

:

She is a tremendous advocate.

413

:

I learn stuff from her every conversation

I have, international advocate, I

414

:

should say, always wants me remind that.

415

:

That's right.

416

:

Um, but yeah, I, you know, I

have long said that there's

417

:

really two sides of this.

418

:

Either you want everybody

to vote or you don't.

419

:

Mm-hmm.

420

:

And I, I used to believe, I still

want to believe that we want

421

:

everybody, every eligible voter to

vote when signatures are not votes.

422

:

Mm-hmm.

423

:

No, but it's still an expression of

your political preference, right?

424

:

That's right.

425

:

We, if we want everyone to have the equal

opportunity to sign a petition to show

426

:

their support, we should make it easier.

427

:

I think too often what we see

happening is, you know, members of the

428

:

legislature, um, trying to restrict.

429

:

Voting restrict signature

collection, like make things harder.

430

:

And they do it in the name of security,

but we've never had an issue with that.

431

:

Um, voting like voter

fraud is not a thing.

432

:

We have extremely secure

elections in Oklahoma.

433

:

We have an extremely secure

signature collection process.

434

:

We could make it a lot easier

for more people to sign it.

435

:

We could do it online.

436

:

There's ways to like validate ID

to make sure they're a registered

437

:

voter, do all those things.

438

:

And also expand access.

439

:

That would save time and save

money and give more people the

440

:

opportunity to express themselves.

441

:

Why don't we do that?

442

:

So one of the other things we talked

about with, um, you go through that

443

:

whole process and then the governor gets

to decide when it goes on the ballot.

444

:

Mm-hmm.

445

:

Yeah.

446

:

So for example, the minimum wage,

um, bill, uh, or state question.

447

:

Mm-hmm.

448

:

I can't even remember when all of the.

449

:

The ballot, like all the

signatures were collected.

450

:

That was a long, that was last summer.

451

:

Yeah.

452

:

So, yeah, so right now

there's state question 8 32.

453

:

Mm-hmm.

454

:

Will be on your ballot in June of 2026.

455

:

And we know that because in 2024,

they collected signatures, turned them

456

:

in qualified, and the governor said,

okay, we'll put on the ballot back, you

457

:

know, like a year and a half from now.

458

:

The way the law is currently written is

that, um, once it qualifies a measure.

459

:

Is assumed to be on the next, I think

it says the next regular ballot.

460

:

Mm-hmm.

461

:

Which is weird old language

that needs to be updated, but

462

:

it says the next regular ballot.

463

:

And the courts have always interpreted

that as saying that means the next

464

:

statewide general election, which only

happens every two years in November.

465

:

Right.

466

:

So it's either a presidential election

or the midterm election, but it is up to

467

:

the governor to put it on another ballot

of an election that's already scheduled,

468

:

or he can call a special election.

469

:

In a weird month, right?

470

:

He can call and be like, oh, we're

gonna vote on that in February.

471

:

Surprise.

472

:

Mm-hmm.

473

:

Um, and that is purely like

a political move, right?

474

:

Do they, the governor puts it

on ballots that they think, or

475

:

their party thinks is going to be

advantageous for their position on it.

476

:

Like if they support it, they'll

put it on the easiest ballot to win.

477

:

And if they don't, they'll put it on

a really hard or a weird month ballot.

478

:

Mm-hmm.

479

:

Um, they could put it in December

when no one's thinking about voting.

480

:

Most years.

481

:

And so the governor, by putting

it off, he moved minimum wage to

482

:

a primary ballot, you know, years

from the time that it happened.

483

:

And that means you're gonna

have a primary electorate,

484

:

which seems to be fewer people.

485

:

They tend to be more partisan.

486

:

And because it's Oklahoma, um, it ends

up being more Republican and, and not

487

:

as many Democrats and, and certainly not

independents who were, you know, blocked

488

:

out of, like Republican closed primaries.

489

:

And so it skews who's

even eligible mm-hmm.

490

:

To show up.

491

:

Yeah.

492

:

Uh, or not, who wasn't it?

493

:

Skews who is likely to show up.

494

:

Mm-hmm.

495

:

Anyone would be eligible.

496

:

Right.

497

:

You could turn out for this if it's

on the ballot, but, uh, we kind of,

498

:

you know, people aren't as motivated

for one thing as they might be for

499

:

a whole ballot of people in things.

500

:

So, yeah.

501

:

Um, again.

502

:

Something else we should change.

503

:

So if there was, so it's gonna be

on a primary the in June, and let's

504

:

say that in a district that does not

have a Democratic primary, they'll

505

:

have a separate ballot if they wanna

show up just for the state question.

506

:

Yeah.

507

:

So, and that's comes to the

way ballots are constructed.

508

:

Mm-hmm.

509

:

They usually the state questions

appear on their own page.

510

:

Yeah.

511

:

Um, for those kind of elections.

512

:

'cause you're gonna have

a bunch of other ballots.

513

:

Yeah.

514

:

I mean, many of us have

showed up to vote and you get.

515

:

One or two, maybe there's a

municipal one and a state one.

516

:

Mm-hmm.

517

:

Um, but it'll have all the ballot language

on there and, and every eligible voter

518

:

would be, will be able to vote on that.

519

:

So the next state question that, um,

just last week, um, we have state

520

:

question 8 36, which is open primaries.

521

:

Mm-hmm.

522

:

And it got the green light, I

think from the Supreme Court.

523

:

Mm-hmm.

524

:

Saying that you can move on.

525

:

You wanna tell us a little bit

about that ballot initiative?

526

:

Sure.

527

:

Yeah.

528

:

So this has been kind of in

flight for several months.

529

:

Um, this has been a topic, again,

it's been discussed for years.

530

:

I think I've been.

531

:

Preaching about the value of

open primaries since:

532

:

Um, and I know in Oklahoma people

have been talking about it.

533

:

In fact, um, current Oklahoma

City Mayor David Holt, when he was

534

:

in the state senate, uh, 10 plus

years ago, he ran a bill to open

535

:

primaries that didn't go anywhere.

536

:

Um, but as a Republican to say, you

know, Hey, we should really do this.

537

:

I mean, he's still a big

advocate for the measure.

538

:

Um, but it's funny that it's

been discussed inside the capitol

539

:

and outside for a long time.

540

:

And I think voters are starting

to recognize that, like, let's

541

:

face, like every voter should vote.

542

:

Mm-hmm.

543

:

Everyone should have an

equal opportunity to vote.

544

:

Uh, so the measure itself, um, would

make a, a slight tweak to our county

545

:

state and, um, like legislative and

statewide races, um, it would not

546

:

affect the race for president, but

it wouldn't do Congress, uh, and US

547

:

Senates, all of those partisan races.

548

:

It would just make them run similar,

the same way to how we do city

549

:

elections, municipal elections, where.

550

:

There is a primary, and every candidate

for that office is on the ballot with

551

:

their, with their party affiliation.

552

:

Mm-hmm.

553

:

So, you know, who's a Republican,

who's a democrat, who's an independent,

554

:

who's a libertarian, and, but as a

voter, regardless of the voter's party

555

:

affiliation or UNA affiliation, um, you

would have a chance to pick from that

556

:

full list of candidates who your preferred

candidate is, and then the top two vote

557

:

getters would go on to the general.

558

:

If there's only two people that file,

well, there's no need for a primary.

559

:

That's who's on the general ballot.

560

:

But in most every case, it allows

more voters the opportunity to

561

:

fully express their preference.

562

:

And the reason for this, I kind of

alluded to earlier, is that Oklahoma

563

:

is, um, a semi closed primary state.

564

:

I think by default we're a closed

primary state, which means only, uh,

565

:

that it's up to the parties to allow.

566

:

For them to say like, who can

vote in the party primaries?

567

:

Mm-hmm.

568

:

So the way it is right now

is that the Democratic Party

569

:

allows independents to vote.

570

:

So Democrats and Independents can

vote in the Democratic primaries,

571

:

but that's a party decision.

572

:

Um, the Libertarian party and the

Republican party have long said, no.

573

:

Only members of our party can vote.

574

:

Um, and there's rarely

a libertarian primary.

575

:

Mm-hmm.

576

:

There's only about, I think, 40,000

members of the party statewide, and they

577

:

usually don't run against each other.

578

:

Um, but it happened I think

last year in some race.

579

:

Uh, and so it certainly can, but um,

Ellen, as you said, in a lot of districts

580

:

where it may be a pretty heavy Republican,

um, presence, if it's only candidates

581

:

from that party who file, then the other

half of the electorate is blocked out.

582

:

And this is important in Oklahoma for a

lot of reasons, not the least of which

583

:

is that last year half of the legislature

was elected on filing day by default.

584

:

Mm-hmm.

585

:

Because they were unopposed.

586

:

Mm-hmm.

587

:

They put their name down and

said, I'm filing for this office,

588

:

and no one ran against them.

589

:

And so they won by default.

590

:

Which again, that's not an election.

591

:

That's as a reminder to all of us.

592

:

Like sometimes it's just

showing up is all it takes.

593

:

Yeah.

594

:

Um, and then, um, so that was about

half people just won by default.

595

:

And then another quarter of the

legislature was elected on primary day.

596

:

Mm-hmm.

597

:

In closed primaries, uh, in,

in races that were in theory

598

:

only competitive among them.

599

:

Uh, these are publicly funded elections.

600

:

Our tax dollars pay for this.

601

:

We believe that every voter

should have the right to vote.

602

:

Hmm.

603

:

That's some of the arguments that

I've heard on, on both sides.

604

:

One is that, um, you know, well,

um, if they wanna have a closed

605

:

primary, they, their party should

come up and, and pay for it.

606

:

Um, and, um, the, and the.

607

:

Because, you know, our dollars go,

we should hopefully get everyone

608

:

involved if they, if they can.

609

:

But then on the other side

is I don't want anyone voting

610

:

outside our party for someone.

611

:

And, and that is sort of how we, we've

kind of shifted in the way what we think.

612

:

I, I like it.

613

:

Hopefully if I'm.

614

:

You know, a, a good representative of

my district that they'll vote for me.

615

:

Um, instead of just saying,

um, I can never vote for a,

616

:

a Democrat or a Republican.

617

:

My neighbor who I love, you know,

longtime Republican, you know, she said.

618

:

Um, she had my sign in her yard, but

she didn't vote for me because she

619

:

said she's never voted for a Democrat.

620

:

And I thought, I have a lot of work

to do and, and we all do if we try

621

:

to show that the works that we do.

622

:

And so maybe that's how

we'll run better campaigns.

623

:

Mm-hmm.

624

:

That we'll be nicer to each other

maybe and it won't be so, um, so split.

625

:

Yeah.

626

:

What are your thoughts on that?

627

:

Yeah, I think you're exactly right.

628

:

And, and there are a number of states

that already have open primaries.

629

:

Um, California's had 'em for a long time.

630

:

Uh, and people point to California

as being a liberal state and it's,

631

:

I mean, it is like nationally,

but when you get down to the state

632

:

legislative level, it's pretty

competitive and pretty evenly balanced.

633

:

Um, there were more people who voted

for Trump in California than in

634

:

Texas, like in terms of raw numbers.

635

:

And so it is not a blue state.

636

:

It is because of some of

their statewide election.

637

:

'cause there's a slim majority statewide.

638

:

Um, but another state

that's really interesting.

639

:

Well, Louisiana has

basically had open primaries.

640

:

Mm-hmm.

641

:

They scheduled theirs differently.

642

:

So they call it a Cajun primary,

but it's essentially the same thing.

643

:

Um, Alaska has had open primaries for

a number of years, um, and there's

644

:

a really great documentary out, it's

on all the, it's on Netflix and app,

645

:

not Netflix, apple, and, uh, Amazon.

646

:

It's called Majority Rules.

647

:

Um, we'll be doing a screening of it

actually in Oklahoma City on October 2nd.

648

:

Mm-hmm.

649

:

At Rodeo Cinema.

650

:

If anyone is interested,

we're writing it down.

651

:

Yeah.

652

:

Yeah.

653

:

Put it on your calendars.

654

:

Mm-hmm.

655

:

Go to rodeo cinema.org.

656

:

Um, and, but it, it does what you

say, it, it changes the incentives

657

:

that politicians face and how

they campaign and how they govern.

658

:

Because you know, everyone will say,

well, I represent my whole district.

659

:

That's true.

660

:

You do.

661

:

But are you actually accountable

to your whole district?

662

:

Did your whole district get

a voice in electing you?

663

:

You know, uh, in 2022 there was a

statewide elected office, and I, I think

664

:

it was the insurance commissioner, um,

but it was elected in a closed primary.

665

:

So I, as an independent voter,

did not get to vote in that

666

:

you didn't either as Democrats.

667

:

Mm-hmm.

668

:

And that is.

669

:

A big issue and Republicans

would say, well, if you don't

670

:

like it, you should run.

671

:

Like, you don't want me to

be insurance commissioner.

672

:

I don't know squat about that.

673

:

Um, should somebody have run?

674

:

Sure.

675

:

Mm-hmm.

676

:

But they didn't.

677

:

That doesn't mean that I shouldn't get a

voice in to choose among those who did.

678

:

Mm-hmm.

679

:

And so I think those are the examples

that we have to point to, that you know,

680

:

a majority of, uh, veterans and members

of the military are independent voters.

681

:

Um, a growing number of young

voters, a majority of young

682

:

people under the age of 35.

683

:

Our independent voters, people are

frustrated with the two parties, but

684

:

they really want to have a say mm-hmm.

685

:

In the future of their

state and of their country.

686

:

But when, when private organizations,

political parties, block voters from

687

:

participating, then you incentivize people

running to the extremes of their party.

688

:

And that is by its very nature,

less representative of what the

689

:

majority consensus actually wants.

690

:

So one of the things we always wanna

talk about is just like how people

691

:

can get involved with state questions,

you know, so if this is an issue

692

:

that they care about, you know, what

would, what would they do to get

693

:

involved in one of those campaigns?

694

:

Well, I'm gonna go to the movie.

695

:

So, yeah, we're we all, I

everyone comes to the movie.

696

:

Yeah.

697

:

Uh, please do.

698

:

Um, and I think.

699

:

Um, I invited the campaign.

700

:

I don't work with the campaign.

701

:

Yeah.

702

:

I just, the thing that I

support as a, as a voter.

703

:

Um, but I invited them to come 'cause

I think people will be interested.

704

:

Mm-hmm.

705

:

And it makes sense to have a

chance to plug in with that.

706

:

Um, uh, otherwise you can just reach out.

707

:

I mean, if you google this stuff,

if you Google open primaries,

708

:

Oklahoma, you will find the website.

709

:

It's yes on eight 30 six.org

710

:

or.com.

711

:

Mm-hmm.

712

:

Or whatever.

713

:

It's, you can find it that way.

714

:

Same thing with minimum wage.

715

:

Right.

716

:

They've qualified for the

ballot, but now they've gotta

717

:

persuade everyone and educate.

718

:

'cause not everyone knows it's

gonna be on the ballot next year.

719

:

And so they've got a lot of education.

720

:

So this is a good chance for if

you believe that our minimum wage

721

:

should be raised over time to $15

an hour, you should get involved.

722

:

Um, you can reach out to them again,

Google, minimum Wage, Oklahoma, or

723

:

minimum wage campaign, Oklahoma, um,

I think it's called Yes, on 8 32.

724

:

And that's the way to do it.

725

:

Um, all of the state question

like information about campaigns

726

:

like the status are, is on the

Secretary of State's website.

727

:

There are some other state questions that

are in flight, as we say right now, um,

728

:

dealing with a range of other issues.

729

:

There's not a bunch, and many of

them may not qualify, but they're

730

:

out there and I check that website.

731

:

Um, if you go to sos.ok.gov

732

:

and then you click on the

executive legislative button, then

733

:

you can search state question.

734

:

It's on there.

735

:

It's hard to find, but it's

there if you know where to look.

736

:

Um, and then I think another great

way people can be involved is if

737

:

they're unsure, if they're wondering

if someone's working on something.

738

:

Do you care about animal welfare?

739

:

Do you care about, um, healthcare rights?

740

:

Do you care about abortion?

741

:

Do you care about.

742

:

Budget and tax policy.

743

:

Do you care about, uh, you know,

right to farm, right to work, what

744

:

all this kind of stuff, right?

745

:

Mm-hmm.

746

:

Do you care about reforming the

initiative petition process, right.

747

:

To make it better?

748

:

Um, they can contact their

elected officials who might

749

:

know, like of your constituents.

750

:

Uh, Ellen Bog Miller, I'm

one of your constituents.

751

:

Mm-hmm.

752

:

I reach out to you all the time

with questions to see if you know

753

:

someone working on something.

754

:

Um, that's a really effective way

and folks are always happy, and

755

:

you're welcome to email me as well.

756

:

Awesome.

757

:

Awesome.

758

:

Thank you.

759

:

Well, we are so glad that you

joined us on between our one

760

:

two, Ellens, our first one.

761

:

We, um, talked about having a fun

way to end our podcast each week.

762

:

And so we would love our listeners

to engage in this, send us questions,

763

:

but we'll start out with our guest.

764

:

Um, ask us a fun or interesting question

you would like to know about the Ellens.

765

:

Ooh, this is a good question.

766

:

Uh, I'm gonna try to refrain from any

contentious political issues, I think.

767

:

Thank you.

768

:

Um, uh, you guys both have kids.

769

:

Mm-hmm.

770

:

Um, serial is a thing.

771

:

Um, do you for, can I

ask a two part question?

772

:

Do you have a favorite cereal?

773

:

This is not sponsored by anybody, Uhhuh.

774

:

Um, but uh, do you have a, do

you have a favorite cereal and

775

:

more importantly is cereal?

776

:

An adequate or an

acceptable meal for dinner.

777

:

I'm a definite yes.

778

:

I am empty nesting right now, so cooking

a big dinner, although I love to cook.

779

:

Um, it's kind of nice and very

comforting to have a bowl of

780

:

cereal if oatmeal is considered a

cereal, which I do believe it is.

781

:

I think that's a nice

nighttime cozy for me.

782

:

Um, and I'm, I'm a basic corn flakes

kind of girl too, so it's a, I've never

783

:

considered having oatmeal for dinner.

784

:

This is mind blowing to me.

785

:

Yeah.

786

:

And I also would not call,

but I guess can be cereal.

787

:

It's a cereal, so it's definitely, um.

788

:

I am a no on breakfast for cereal,

um, or dinner using cereal.

789

:

Um, I like, well I grew up in a house

that didn't really have a lot of cereal.

790

:

Mm-hmm.

791

:

And so when I went to college and people

ate cereal all the time and drank the

792

:

milk afterwards, it really weirded me out.

793

:

So I am like, not into cereals,

but I do love like a Lucky Charms

794

:

or Cinnamon Toast Crunch kinda.

795

:

You know, ones I could eat at camp that

my parents wouldn't let me eat at home.

796

:

Right.

797

:

I mean, is a, the desserts

of cereal as a kid.

798

:

Apple Jack's.

799

:

Oh yeah.

800

:

I love that one too funny.

801

:

How about you?

802

:

Do you have a favorite cereal?

803

:

Uh, I'm real boring.

804

:

I really like Raisin brand, which is

like an old man choice my whole life.

805

:

Um, but I also, uh,

was never a big cereal.

806

:

I mean, we ate, it was a kid

growing up 'cause it was probably

807

:

easy and it was the eighties.

808

:

That's what everyone did.

809

:

Um, but I got to college and everyone

was eating all the time and I was

810

:

like, there are way better food groups.

811

:

So I really have probably eaten

cereal 10 times since I turned 20.

812

:

Yeah, no, I'm, I'm with you.

813

:

And, um, you know, so grateful

that you kicked us off.

814

:

Um, if people wanna learn more about

the podcast or what we've talked

815

:

about, we do have a website you

can visit between two ellens.com

816

:

and, um, we are grateful for

you listening to us today.

817

:

Thank you.

818

:

Thank you.

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About the Podcast

Between Two Ellens*
Between Two Ellens* is a podcast hosted by Oklahoma state representatives Ellyn Hefner and Ellen Pogemiller. Together, they dive into pressing state issues through both a legislative and community lens. Each episode features conversations with experts, advocates, and Oklahoma legislators to highlight diverse perspectives and practical solutions shaping Oklahoma’s future.